Darshan
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of darsan talks. I am your host Darshan Kulkarni, it's my mission to help patients stress the products they depend on. And as part of that, a huge component of that is having the employees who work on those products actually liked where they work and trust the people they work with. So today is going to be a conversation about workplace stress. As you may know, I'm an attorney, I'm a pharmacist, and and I advise companies with FDA regulated products. So if you think about drums, wonder about devices, consider cannabis or obsessive a pharmacy. This is the podcast for you. I should specify I'm an attorney. So this is not clearly this is not legal advice is not clinical advice. This is not construction advice. If you need advice on any of those things, reach out to the appropriate professional. I do these videos because they're a lot of fun. I find myself learning something new every single time. And I learned that from talking to incredibly smart people like the people I'm talking to like our guest today. But it would be nice to know that other people listening. So if you like what you hear, please like leave a comment, please subscribe, you can always find me on Twitter at DarshanTalks, or just go to our website at DarshanTalks.com. today's podcast, today's podcast, I hinted at it a little bit, but it's going to be about workplace trust. And what does that mean? Why is it important? Why can I just go to work and collect a paycheck and not worry about anything. So if you are interested in having a in, shall we say, a conflict free workplace, you should care about today's today's discussion. Our guest for today is how she is known globally, as the trust architect, to works with companies to build conflict free workplaces and our guest today, ladies and gentlemen, Libra Donnie Lee, good to have you again. How are you?
Lea
Good, I'm good. You know, I don't know if it makes other people nervous. But whenever I hear all of those things that someone says about me, I was raised in a home that said, you know, your don't think so. Don't be so full of yourself. And I hear that. And I feel like saying to people, well, it's kind of true, but it sounds like a lot more impressive. Thank you Darshan, it only made me a little bit uncomfortable.
Darshan
Well, this is the kind of uncomfortable I'm comfortable making you. So let's talk a little bit Lee about what's going on in the world. But here's some good news. When people are gonna listen to this in Well, they're gonna listen to it live. And if you listen to later on, for those of you who haven't heard this, we're finally coming out of COVID. People are saying, You know what, I think we've got this thing covered, depending on where you are in the world. And we are willing to start engaging with people again. And companies are saying, great, that must mean you're ready to come back to work, because we have work for you. And people are saying, first of all, I was always working. So I don't know what you mean, but I have worked for you. And two, I don't want to come back to work you you are able to run your company and run it well, with the record making profits across the s&p 500 the like, why do I need to come back to work? Why do I need to increase my costs? change everything that I do? Because I need to show up at a random place of work. So here's my first question. How should employers deal with this breakdown between employees and employers as to whether they should come back to work? Is that is that a trust issue? That they don't trust each other? And that this need isn't necessary anymore? Is it a stylistic thing? Or is it something else?
Lea
Well, you know, I don't think it's an it's one or the other. I think it's a bit of a combination of all of them. And I've talked to a number of leaders and I've talked to employees, and there is communication that's going on. So that's really good. One of the top leaders that I spoke to said that most employees and employers feel that they're going to have a hybrid work place. So people are going to be able to continue working from home for part of the week, but they are going to be going into the office for part of the week and from two different perspectives. So from an employee's perspective, it's great that you can stay at home and especially for a lot of women if they could continue doing their work. I used to speak to women who said that 50% of their income went towards childcare. Right? So working from home has increased their salary by that much just With the fact that they could stay at home, and they didn't have to pay for the expensive childcare. Now it also complicated things a lot more. Because if you're supposed to be on the on working for eight hours, but you also have to change diapers, cook a meal, do the laundry and everything else, you can see that there's a conflict here. Yeah, but the amount of work that is getting done should be what employers are most concerned with. So if it is done, you know, does it have to be done between the hours of eight and five? And for some businesses? Yes, that's true. I have spoken at a lot of call centers. And if they're getting inbound calls, they need to have people on the line during those times, right. But if there's other things that are task oriented, and you have to get the x, y, z done, then does it matter if it's between eight and five, or if it's between 12 and eight, that you know, so it really depends on the business. So that's one, one issue. The other one is, for employees, you have to look at the fact that so much of getting promoted, doesn't happen just around the work that you're doing. It happens around the interactions that you have with people in the hallway, right? Now, you may not have access to the, you know, the top, the top leaders in the company when you're working from home. But when you're working in a bricks and mortar building, those interactions that you have are really important, they see the work that you're doing more or more than they would, you know, they might get the results, especially if you're in a sales position, it's a lot easier, they can look at it. But in a bricks and mortar building, you know, you're walking down the hallway, and all of a sudden you run into someone, and it happens to be that one of the top leaders and you have a conversation. And a lot of that is where you're going to have the opportunity to have the conversations that help promote you in the business. So if you're happy doing what you're doing, and you don't want to change that at all, you don't care about promotion, you just want to have the salary and be done with it, then yeah, the the working from home works really well. So like anything, it's complicated, so you have to ask yourself all those questions.
Darshan
So let's explore that a little bit, though, what I'm hearing you say, is this idea that employers aren't many will address employers first and then go to employees. Employers are hesitant that if I'm paying you X amount of money, I expect you to do the work during that period of time. It's a it's a fair expectation to have. Once you're saying though, is that can you move the work day, from nine to five to say 12 to eight? The question is, how do you know what that what that? If you've been working at those new three hours anyways? Or do they sort of go well, now this kids have come back from school and I got to take care of them for this thing? That's that's one question I would ask. So I think they'll suggest that model works. Especially Well, if you've got a situation where you already have metrics that you can ascribe to people and go, this job should take four hours. If you're taking eight hours, there's something wrong, you're not spending the time we thought you would be spending. So how do you help small businesses, which is about 70% of us businesses? address those, that lack of metrics, if you will.
Lea
So first of all, it starts from the very beginning, you have to hire right, you have to trust that you are going to be bringing in the right people for the job. Yeah, and brought the right people in for the job, then you have to again, trust that they're going to do the job that they say they're going to do. There's Every company has checks and balances, or they should have checks and balances on what needs to be done. And people know that they're going to be judged on the work that they do. So you know, there has to be and just for people who are listening, my trust model is really easy to remember. And it's based on five tenets. So it's caring, commitment, consistency, competence and communication. So even though people are working from home, you have to be able to show them that you care about them and so check in And make sure that their mental health is good. One of the things that I have seen with so many people, and I've felt it myself is that man, you know, this was this was hard at times where you felt like you were disconnected from people and you were fear had a bit of a play in your brain, and you weren't quite sure what was happening. So having someone calling and saying, How are you doing? What are you doing, and sending out those little things like the company my husband worked for, they sent out little packages when they had big meetings, and he'd open it up. And there would be like silly things like hats and things and popcorn and, and something that they could have for the meeting. And it was just a little example, to show that they saw them as individuals, and not just as the job that they were doing. So you're seeing the people who work for you, as a cog, that gets things done. That has a big effect on whether they trust you, because I might trust that you're going to keep me employed, as long as I'm valuable to you. But if I have a problem, are is the employee? Is the employer going to hang in there with me? Yeah, so learning is a big part of it. And how do you show your people that you care? One of the things that I know too, is like, I want to ask the people who are listening, do you? Do you trust everybody you work with? Probably don't like Why? And does everybody trust you? So you know if you can answer that question like, Oh, yeah, absolutely. I don't know very many people who can, you know, we'll put up the information later, you can give me a call. And really, there is no obligation, I'll give you one hour of my time. And I'll listen and give you some advice on what you can do to build the trust. So we can do that. So
Darshan
before you continue, what is the number they call you to reach out
Lea
to you so they go to my website, which is Libra OVA, Danny calm, and Leah spelled le a, I know just to be confusing. It sounds like it should be spelled. So Li is le a and Grover, Danny, is br o, v di. So you can see my name, it's at the bottom of the screen right? on the left. So go to Libra danny.com and go to connect, or contact excuse me go to contact, and my calendar will show up and you can just pick an hour. And you know, it's I love it because I don't have to worry about keeping track of it. Yeah, software does it for me. So caring is the first one commitment, you know, how committed are you to the job to the company and to what you're supposed to be getting done? And the company is going to measure you on that commitment? And what is the company's commitment to you? You should know what it is. So consistency. And that's where a lot of times I see trust getting kind of mixed up is consistency shows up in how people are, what they're saying and what they're doing. So they should match. If I say I'm going to show up at noon, for you, Sean and then I show up 20 minutes later. Yeah, that consistency issue. And you I would think you might not have me on the show again. So yet the trust that people will show up consistently, what they say and what they do will match.
Darshan
I would argue it's also a commitment issue, because you said you get there to no need and make it. Um, having said that, how do you draw, especially in a time like now, where you've got global teams, and culturally, being time sensitive? The Germans will hold you to a it's disrespectful to be late to I'm gonna say this. Indians are not the most. No, I'm not known to be on time as easily as I'd like them to be. And I am as guilty.
Lea
In India.
Darshan
Exactly, exactly.
Lea
No, it's India. Indian Standard Time. Yeah.
Darshan
It's India Indian standard time or Indian stretchable time, depending on who you are. So, so yeah, so my point is, how do you generate trust in a with a culture that doesn't measure things in the same way you do.
Lea
So one of the things is having communication so that is a big part of it. And just like you said, you understand that there are different cultural norms for even something like attentiveness and showing Upon time, so from what I've been told with my husband, when he's working in Japan is that they consider you late if you show if you don't show up five minutes early, right, right. So you know, you look at the different standards, and a lot of the people in the Caribbean have the same, you know, stretchable time, so, so understand the people that you're working with, and then communicate what your expectations are. So a lot of trust is around making sure that you're communicating the other four, so carrying commitment, consistency, consistency, and competence. Do they have the skills? Do they have the skills that they're supposed to have, and a lot of times we trust people who have those skills, but that's I, from my perspective, one of the easiest things to to improve with trust. If competence is lacking, then I if they have the will, then you can train them, if they're if they're committed, and they're willing to go that extra mile, you can train them so that competence can be learned. So it depends what the mission is, as well.
Darshan
So what I'm hearing you say, is this idea that, yes, you have, you have five components of off your trust ladder, if you will, for lack of a better term, sort of components. But it sounds like the highest rung of that ladder is communication, because the rest of them need to fall into line. Because communication can address a lot of those concerns that you may have had, because there might be cultural differences or something else. And for lack of a better term, competence is the lowest one, not because it's not important, but because it can be learned. Is that fair? Or is that am I sort of adding more to it than that it's probably fair,
Lea
you know, from from, like, I like to do a lot of research. And from a research perspective, I haven't studied it. So I can't see what one weighs heavier. But from what I'm when I'm working with people, I think that communication is really important. And I think that Karen, I spent a lot of time in emotional intelligence. Yes. So I would say that a lot of times caring is is exceptionally important, because I'll be a little bit more flexible. If you don't hit some of the other tenants, if I believe that you truly and deeply care about me. Yeah, but if I don't believe that a person cares about me as an individual as a person, then they can be competent, and they can be communicate really well. But you know, think think of those those graphs that we do. And think that person who is absolutely brilliant, you know, has that a high high high IQ, but they don't really care about anyone else, and they can communicate circles around everybody. Yeah. You know, the term that we usually use when we're thinking of them is jerk.
Darshan
We call them lawyers. But sure.
Lea
So, so you know, like when you think about the people that you're working with people, and they might not be that brilliant, but they care so deeply about the job and the company and the people that they work with. And they're willing to be committed and consistent and work on their competence. Who would you rather work with? Who do you trust?
Darshan
So let's ask that and explore that a little bit. Because I, I mean, I definitely want to say I trust the person who's caring and is looking out for me and stuff. But I've seen that go wrong, I've done it wrong. And I what I mean by that is, you often want to be the person who's caring who's there nurturing, but sometimes the most caring thing in the world is to fire you, and to go, you're just a bad fit, and you're unhappy and where I'm happy, and this cannot be the way you grow. So caring, to me. Sounds like a great concept that comes in multiple forms, some forms that are less obvious at that moment than others. But do when we use the term caring when you use the term caring? Are you using the term in the traditional sense, which is, I appreciate you and I show you respect almost and and sort of, I'm looking out for you or is it? I respect you as an employee? So is it respect as a person respect as an employee, you're caring as a personal caring as an employee, and how do you especially for middle management, how do you balance the need of caring for individuals versus caring for your company?
Lea
A lot of times, you know, if I'm looking at emotional intelligence, which Tai was involved in for a number of years, there was this whole bullet, not belief, there was things that were going around that said that emotional intelligence was more important than cognitive intelligence, which wasn't true. If I'm hiring someone in a position, I want to make sure, first of all, that they have the competence. But if I have a list of candidates, and they all have the same competence and skills, then the person who is going to excel in the position is the one who has the most emotional intelligence. So let's not say that, you know, intelligence and competence aren't important, because they are. But in addition, you have to layer that with caring, and it needs, from my perspective, and again, I, you know, I think that you need to care about the person as an individual, that there are things that you will, in most companies, they will set a set of standards here, how here's how we're going to care for the employees. And it's, we offer them a benefit package, they have good medical, and they have, they're expected to work these hours, and here's the salary we're going to pay. Those are all they might show up in caring, but their standard for every employee, right? Think about the best person that you've worked with. And you know, everybody who's listening, think about the best person you've worked with. Is it because they gave you good benefits? No. You're like, why? Like, what was it that they did? What was it that you said, I will continue working for this person? And I'll work really hard for them. Like, why did you?
Darshan
For me, it was someone who understood when I was having a rough time, and and looked out for me, but at the same time, expected me to do better when, when I when I didn't meet those same standards. So someone was what I refer to as the tyranny of low expectations. And someone who basically said,
Lea
for people, the tyranny of low expectations, so that, I like that anyway.
Darshan
So So to me, when someone says that there are two ways to show caring, right, there's one way which basically goes, Oh, I'm gonna, you're going through a rough time, you don't have to do anything. It's okay, we got you. And then there's someone going, I know you're going through a rough time I hear you. But you're better than this, work at it. And you just go, yeah, I'm gonna get better because I'm not, yes, this part of me is completely failing. But these other parts of me can still continue to shine. And to me that tyranny of low expectations is the part I worry about the most.
Lea
So I've never heard that that expression before, I would say that, it's how you express caring, it doesn't mean that you don't have expectations of a person. And it doesn't mean that you let them get away with everything. I think sometimes you get to know the person and you're able to empathize and have a conversation with them, and help them to be better than they believe that they could be. So how we define caring?
Darshan
Yeah, yeah. So so you we talk about caring, we talk about COVID and coming out of the workplace. My question is, in this world, where you are showing share of caring, you are avoiding the tyranny of low expectations you are looking at, at look at commitment and, and confidence and communication and consistency. I have really terrible handwriting right now, which I would like. But, but when you're looking at each of these, how do you enable people to have that upward trajectory in their in their in their careers? Or do we see a future where people are not necessarily looking people looking at gig jobs, which is what people are, keep talking about, right? up, Uber and everything else where you're just like, you do a function, you're a cog in a wheel. And when that function is done, you go to another function and do it for someone else. So do you do you think that the expectations around work itself are changing? Or is it that is it something else?
Lea
There's always been so many different tiers. And so for a lot of the low skill positions, and it's not that, you know, like an Uber driver has a lot of different skills that they bring into it. The ones that are really successful are able to talk to people, they're able to maneuver through traffic and all of those things. So I'm not, I'm not undermining or minimizing the skill that's involved in it, but it's a lower entry level position as far as competence. So as we go up that level Have competence increases. And so our expectations around what this person needs to do increases. And it also depends, you know, like if I have a son who just graduated from university, and he's working in a virtual business from home and he started his, his own company, well, it's going to be interesting to see how he networks, how he continues to network. And it's becoming much more obvious that people are getting very proficient on the computer, at having events and networking. So I think that we're going to see a huge change in how the workplace actually operates. But I still believe that we are going to need some face to face and person to person interactions. And and what that looks like, I'm going back to speak at live conferences. I have one in Dallas in September and one in Orlando in November. And between those I'm doing virtual speaking engagements. So it's all over the map. Yeah. So you know, like, I don't know, I don't think I answered it. But I think that if we want to be promoted, I think that you have to be able to explore, and the higher up you go, you have to know, what is your goal? Like, what is it you're trying to achieve? And can you get there virtually.
Darshan
And I know Bruno, who's actually a VR Guru is listening. And I can tell him, this is perfect. How does VR play? And this becomes a big question in the future, but but we are, as you know, I try to keep these at around 1520 minutes were well past that right now. fascinating conversation. Um, so let me ask you a couple of questions to keep us going. One, um, how can people reach
Lea
you again? Okay, so you see my name at the bottom, Leo, Danny, go to Libra, Danny, calm, hit, contact, and you can get into my calendar and book some time and I'll talk to you. The advice really is free if then you decide if you need me more, you might decide that an hour is all that you need. And I sold all all of the problems that you have in the world. And if that's the case, then good on Yes, they would say.
Darshan
Fair enough. Um, let me ask you another question. Based on what we've discussed so far, what is the one question like to ask the audience?
Lea
Well, you throw these at me Darshan and give me. What is one question I'd like, I'd like to know how you're managing in a virtual world. I would love to hear. How do you continue trusting the people you work with when you work virtually?
Darshan
I'll give you an answer. I think I'm struggling right now. I'm struggling more now than I have at any time in the past. And I've been just as virtual now as I happened before. So I don't know if the virtual environment exacerbated something. Or if I just trigger. So.
Lea
Yeah. And between forced isolation and chosen isolation to and during the pandemic, I think a lot of us felt like it was forced upon us and it wasn't something we chose. And that makes a big difference.
Darshan
I agree. Another question, what is something that made you happy in the last week?
Lea
My daughter is pregnant, and I'm going to be a grandmother for the first time in November. It's not that I just found out but I made a quilt for the baby. And it gives me such satisfaction. Looking at this, and knowing that it's going to be something that I can give to my future grandchild, maybe?
Darshan
Yeah, that is really, really cool. Okay, um, in the last month, what is something new you've learned?
Lea
I have been working on a new course. And I'm becoming an end of life doula, so that, I know, you're probably but much of that has to do around trust and giving people the best three months of their life and helping families get through grief. And I know it might seem like a stretch, but it fits so beautifully with the work that I do and
Darshan
trust. I think what I hear you saying in three different ways, is that you build relationships, whether it is with a new mother and her child, whether it is between employers and employees, or whether it is just enabling and having those conversations with your daughter and your future, Grandpa So they're all to me, part of that architecture, you keep building, so kudos to you. Um, well, I think the key piece during this conversation, we've ended up talking a little bit about workplace bullying, we learned that talking about return to work and what that looks like, and what the considerations are going to be. We talked about the two big things being that employees want the flexibility because it almost results in a 50% increase in income, because they're not worried about childcare, which so a lot of people are hesitant to give that off, give that up. And then but but the downside of that is you might be stuck where you are and promotions may not be possible and what the implications of that we also discussed your, your five step, five step trust program, if you will, which gets into caring commitment. The five pillars of tennis, tennis, rastegar, the five tenets of trust, caring, commitment, consistency, competence, and communication. Um, Did I miss anything?
Lea
No, no, that was great.
Darshan
I'm leave again, just to remind people, how can they reach you again,
Lea
Libra with danny.com, go to contact and you'll actually see a phone number. So if you want to call me and have a conversation, that's cool, too. But you can fill out a time slot and we'll arrange a time for a conversation.
Darshan
That sounds awesome. And you can find me on Twitter at our phone talks or just go to our website at darsan tops.com. Leave this was awesome. Thank you so much.
Lea
Thank you, Marcia. It's always fun.
Lea
This is the DarshanTalks podcast, regulatory guy, irregular podcast with host Darshan Kulkarni. You can find the show on twitter at DarshanTalks or the show's website at DarshanTalks.com
