Darshan
Welcome to another episode of DarshanTalks. I'm your host Darshan Kulkarni. It's my mission to help patients trust the products they depend on. And part of that process is actually talking to patients talking to people who've actually been there used your products if you're in the pharmaceutical industry, been your patient. So if you're interested in that, that is the conversation for you. As you may know, I'm an attorney. I'm a pharmacist and advise companies with FDA regulated products. So if you think about drugs, wonder about devices, consider cannabis or ponder over pharmacy is the podcast for you. As lawyer, I do have a special specify, not legal advice, not clinical advice. But this is just an educational conversation where I get to learn from someone smart, like our guest today. I do these podcasts because there are a lot of fun. I'd love to have you tune in. So please like subscribe, please leave a comment. And if you'd like conversations, like the one we're gonna have today, and I can tell you a lot of people have been asking me about today's conversation. I really hope I don't disappoint them. But our guest for today is actually really, really unique is bringing a very interesting viewpoint. So please share the conversation if you if you do hear it. If you want to find me, you can always reach out to me on twitter DarshanTalks, or go to our website at DarshanTalks calm. today's podcast, this podcast is really really cool. It's going to be talking about the patient viewpoint, but we're going to talk about it in the context of, of sharing the patient view and the different ways that happens. And we're going to talk a little bit about the unique journey that got our guest here today. Um, so so if you are in clinical research, if you are in marketing, if you are medical affairs. If you are a healthcare provider. If you are a pharmacist, you will care about today's discussion. Our guest for today is a cancer survivor. She's a polymath, and for those of you don't know, let's find out what a polymath is as well. She's a techno, technological innovator and is the CEO of amplify health. Our guests today, ladies and gentlemen, Sylvie Leighton. Welcome, Silvia, how are you?
Sylvie
I'm great. Thank you so much for this introduction. It's good to see you.
Darshan
It's good to see you as well. so silly. We're gonna start by talking about the basics, because we sort of opened the door with this question. What exactly is a polymath?
Sylvie
Oh, you know, someone called me like this. And I don't know, maybe it was 10 years ago, and I had to actually look it up. And it's someone who knows a lot about a lot of different disciplines. So that really is kind of me. I've just been curious. And I've just learned about everything. I stopped going to school after five degrees, but I just kept learning and
Darshan
thank God you stopped going to school after five years, but you're gonna have as many degrees as me. I'm at six. So you probably window because you probably have real degrees. But let me ask you this this question, because you talk about being a polymath. Well, before we go there, what do you what do you five degrees?
Sylvie
Oh, so in math, physics, engineering. And so in computer science, with a specialty in robotics and artificial intelligence, and Management Science,
Darshan
okay, you officially when that was, that was actually kind of impressive. So let's start with the basics. Right? You talked about being a polymath, you talk about all these degrees, which are hardcore stem degrees, but you are actually a trained ballerina.
Sylvie
Oh, yes, I forgot I have a degree in dance. So before I studied science, I was a ballerina. And I studied ballet. I was five year old. And this was truly my passion and my dream. And I was in the conservatory in France, which is kind of the top school you can go to and it's very competitive. And at the end of my training, I won the gold medal in ballet, which, you know, is pretty impressive. I've been told, like, as a comparison here, we'd be a first price at Juilliard. It's really people that you know, get this they get to be soloist and in the performing arts, so, that's what I did, but my parents didn't want me to be a ballerina. So I went to science.
Darshan
So so you trained as a ballerina, how long were you a ballerina? What I'm trying to figure out is, did you start as a ballerina work as a ballerina and then become scientist, or what was, was that a hobby
Sylvie
was not a hobby, it was like I was dancing five hours a day. And training very hard. So I had to get an exception from school to be able to be kind of this full full time school, but then also go to the conservatory with kind of people as well doing this full time. So I was a very busy kid. Um, and yeah, I had a schedule, just insane the schedule of everything from like, 7am to like, 10pm. Every day, it was scheduled, like, just so that I could do everything in my days.
Darshan
That sounds exhausting. So you worked, or you basically you effectively worked as a ballerina, and then became a scientist. along the way. Could you talk a little bit about your journey, going from the arts, going from the creative perspective, as someone who was primarily work in the, in the sciences, there's a certain Mystique to me around the arts, where you get to express yourself and sort of express things within you. So my question to you is, how did that translate into your journey as a technological innovator?
Sylvie
So it's both a blessing and a curse. So I think on the blessing side, and one thing that has, you know, it felt for me that it was kind of complimentary, you know, many of the novel prices have an art background. And I knew mathematicians, for example, like, you know, there is really a very strong kind of a corollary between the beauty in the art and the beauty in mathematical equations. And so I was more attracted by that view, the kind of purity in, in, in science and engineering, you know, the kind of the discipline to get it, right, so that they are things that are similar. So from a study perspective, it was great. And the fact that I think I started to be an artist, before I was a scientist, made me look at science with different lenses than people that would have started straight into science. And kind of given me the edge that I have today in, in, in what I'm doing. The curse is more after afterwards, when I started to work in, in, in Silicon Valley, and I kind of had to hide my dance background and artistic background. And that that was kind of difficult for
Darshan
me. What Why did you have to hide it?
Sylvie
Well, because I wasn't taken seriously. If I would say, Oh, I'm a ballerina. Yeah. Yeah.
Darshan
Yeah. I didn't realize that.
Sylvie
Yes, yes. Yes, yes.
Darshan
Okay, so so you, you were this covert ballerina in Silicon Valley, a secret agent, if you will. And you're in Silicon Valley, you're demonstrating with all these degrees, how smart you are, how you're saving, and changing the world. And then you got into, in into artificial intelligence. I guess at this point, I start getting a little hazy for me. When did you discover that you had cancer? And how did that sort of play into the timeline?
Sylvie
Okay, cancer was recent. I was diagnosed with cancer three years ago. And that was a time in my life where I was already questioning a lot of things I had felt before cancer that you know, I wasn't satisfied with being a technologist and an engineer and artist in me I'd kind of like come back started to write a study to think about ideas of startups backwards. Start differently than you know think about a lot of different things and so when I got cancer three years ago, kind of everything stopped. And there was a lot of difficulties I'm I'm writing a book right now on my cancer journey. So The first year with risk just really bad. And you know, now I'm in the third year in the past year, it's been kind of the life reconstruction and awakening for me. And it's, it's been really exciting to get a chance to actually start a new life at a wiser age in life.
Darshan
Well, we have a, we have a suggestion for a book title for you, by the way. Yeah. Ellen got Goldstein says, you should consider covert ballerinas as the title for your next memoir. So we we have people already listening in already loving the stuff you're saying, but but let's talk a little bit more about that. So before we get into this, because I didn't know what your timeline was, were you already the CEO of echo fi health when this happened?
Sylvie
No, no. So I was in the past 1510 years or 15 years, I can remember Time flies. Before cancer, I was a consultant and I was advising a tech company on innovation marketing strategy. And that was basically what what I was doing, and you know, then start to think about, I'm getting tired of this consulting, I want to start my own company. And, and so then I got cancer. So I, I stopped working for a year. And interesting, I was just writing this, this chapter in my book over the weekend, but it started with, you know, when I was going through cancer, I was going through cancer with both the eyes of a cancer patient completely, you know, depleted, stressed, and everything you can imagine, but also with the eyes of a designer of human experience, because, you know, in, in technology, I kind of ended up specializing in, you know, an area that actually blended well with my creativity and artistic thing, which is really understanding the human needs of customers and bringing more humanity into technology. So I became, I mean, I've, I've done a lot of roles, like kind of every kind of rose into technology space, but I got very interested in Human Centered Design and design. And so I, I went into cancer, with also the eyes of a designer that's looking at what's happening to me, looking at the space, and like, thinking about everything that I could change to make it better. And in a way that helped me go through cancer, because I was not the victim anymore. I was kind of thinking, as I was going through this pain, what I can do to alleviate the pain of other cancer patients, what am I learning, you know, from this experience that can be helpful to others. So that that was kind of, you know, what was in the back of my, in the back of my mind. And I started to blog about my cancer journey, and talk about, you know, those experiences that I had observed both internally and externally. You don't know this, but I'm very devoted mindfulness meditation practitioner. So the mindfulness meditation, as also helps me observe mindfully, you know, both my inner experience and what's happening around me. So I had an acute mindful understanding of my cancer journey, and the medical processes that I was going through. And so I started to blog about my experience, and my blog became really successful, it reached 100 countries, it got 1000s and 1000s of shares, you know, more than then average media articles. And people will like telling me Oh, my God, you nailed it in the head, you're articulating experiences that I had, that I couldn't articulate. And then on the side of providers, they were telling me that thank you for making me understand what it's like to be a cancer patient. And so with that, and what people were telling me I got inspired to write a book. But, you know, because of my background, in innovation and wanting to improve the world, like writing a book wasn't enough, I felt that you know, I need to do something bigger than writing a book. And I realized that I could use my experience to help health providers understand the patient experience. At the level that they are not able to understand today, so that they can actually build better patient experiences that are more conducive to healing. I wrote an article about my radiation experience it was published in in a journal and it became one of the most highest scoring article in the in the journal and it's about how miserable my experience was, for a lot of avoidable reasons that providers are not seeing.
Darshan
I think that's fascinating, because I'm thinking about this article. And I'm thinking, I'm a healthcare provider, I have spent 20 years as a pharmacist. And I can tell you that as a pharmacist, one of the things we struggle with, is we want to help our patients, but we are, we feel like a cog in a wheel in a large wheel. And can I make any difference in the life of a patient? And I guess my question for you is when you talk to providers, whether it's physicians, whether it's nurses, whether it's pharmacists or someone else, do you find yourself helping them understand your viewpoint, but then realizing they can't do as much? Because they're just a small piece of a much bigger system? Hmm,
Sylvie
I love this question. Thank you. So when, when I was going through cancer, I was actually talking to all my oncologist about this, and they loved it, you know, they were just like, Oh my God, I've been an oncologist for 20 years, the first time that the patient is talking to me, I'm learning so much. And that that was inspiring to me, right? But then, as you said, exactly, it's like, the problem is not just this one oncologist. Right. And so everybody's thinking that we're going to improve the patient experience by making sure that people are empathetic and enchain and things but you know, I have to say, my team, I mean, I, I, it took me a while to find the right medical team, but my current medical team is empathetic. So, and I'm still having all those problems. Right. Right. Right. And so it's not this one person, it's the system that is poorly designed. This the healthcare system, is designing the human experience of the patient with a myopic understanding, you know, what I tell people is that this quote, I love from a Japanese Zen master, the father of, of, of Japanese philosophy, 12th century dogen. He said that, you know, we are looking at the world through a straw, and we think we see the whole sky, we look at the skies for a stroll, and we think we see the whole sky, this is what's happening to healthcare, they are looking at the experience of the cancer patients through a stroke, and they think that they know the cancer experience, the patient experience. And I think that this is where the problem is, it's why as a cancer patient, do I have to spend two hours every day on the phone just to manage my appointments. This is ridiculous. Right? So so you know, so I realized that there are a lot of things that the healthcare system doesn't see. And so I have a background in, as I said, in human centered design, design thinking. And so I know the process, the question is, this is what I've done in my life, to bring products to market is you understand the needs, and you failed solution that addressed the needs of customers. What a healthcare system is doing is they're kind of adopting design thinking, but they're just adopting the the icing of the top, they are taking kind of like the superficial view of design thinking, Oh, I spoke to a patient advocate. I understand the patient experience, you know, and that is not true. You know, I can tell you as a cancer patients, everybody has told me, Oh, I know all about cancer. My father had cancer. My brother had cancer. My uncle had cancer, and I'm like, you don't know anything about cancer? What you so have the experience. Yeah. So instead of keeping talking to me about your brother and your father and how the experience was bad, listen to mine. Nobody wanted to listen to my story. Huh? And so the same way healthcare providers, they see patients every day and they think they understand the patient experience, you know, so to go back to your short question, I realized that could really change the way the patient experience was designed. And I went and use my skills are used to actually teach people in technology, how to design products by hand, and really understanding the deep needs of the customer. So I built a training to do that, and I went to present it my hospital. And you know, the patient experience team got really defensive, we already have people were already doing everything we're doing, we need to know, we don't need you, basically. So I realized that it was going to be very difficult as a patient to actually do this, this transformation. And last year, the COVID pandemic hit. And as we all know, the racial disparities were revealed and greatly shocked the nation and the world.
Sylvie
I was personally really distraught. I, I had expected it and at the beginning of COVID, that well not really results by race or ethnicity. And, you know, it just kind of came several months later, but I kept kept crawling the web to search every day, every day, I was just like, I sense it's going to be a catastrophic. And, you know, yeah, sure enough, black and Hispanics and, and indigenous people were really disproportionately affected by COVID. And this is something that I knew that there were cancer disparities, right, I knew that black people were dying at higher rates of then white people have the same type of cancer. And I, I felt that I had to do something about it. I, I, I didn't know like, it's, it's kind of like everything I did in my life before, everything I had wanted to do with my life before just disappeared. And it was just this awakening, that if there is something I can do before I die, that is going to help people understand how they can address health disparities. That's the only thing that's worth living for. And I didn't know what it was. So you know, really adoption, I just spent a month with like, you know, a blank notebook with me every morning, sitting on the chair, and just like putting at the top of the top this was what can I do with my life to address racial disparities? And I wasn't even thinking health, I was kind of like thinking racial disparities, then I realized that I need to focus on healthcare, just because you know, I'm a cancer patient, I understand that space from the patient perspective. And, you know, before I had wanted to actually improve the experience of patients, so let's try to maybe I can merge all of this and address health disparities and starting with cancer since you know, I'm a cancer patient. And I just brainstormed by myself, What can I do? What can I do I need to do something, you know, I can't I can't let this going without at least trying to do something because I felt that I looked at how health disparities were being addressed. I first did that research. And I didn't think I didn't find solutions. I didn't find solutions that as you were describing were actually systemic that could actually affect the whole system. You know, there is this like hospital little Hospital in that community that's doing this project there and and then there are those people doing this and, and, you know, and then a lot of the disparities work is actually not done with, you know, by people have collars. And with intimate understanding of this, so they think that they can just speak to the community, supposedly, or advocates and understand that, but that's still kind of like, a superficial understanding. And I just had this eye opening, where I realized that what I had different To help providers understand the patient experience could be adapted to actually help health providers understand the experience of black patients in healthcare. I realized that you know, the roots of disparities is a lack of understanding, we are trying to solve something that we don't understand. So putting all this money on addressing disparities, and we don't even understand the experience of black patients. It's like, how are we going to like, be doing something successful, right? We can put money and maybe be lucky, one thing will actually work. But that's not a systematic approach to solving a human problem. Right?
Darshan
I'm fascinated. So is that what I prefer helped us?
Sylvie
Yes. So when I realized that I could actually use my skills that were very unique, that I felt that, you know, one was going to cry, but I have cancer. You know, I have been a cancer patient, for Actually, my cancer were diagnosed three years ago. But I've been a patient, a cancer patient for eight years, undergoing zillion biopsies and failed procedures and the whole thing. So I've had like, 1000, medical appointments, and I've had a chance to see a lot of things that were wrong. So I'm a cancer with deep. I'm a cancer patient with deep personal experience. I'm a human centered designer, a designer of human experience, patient experience, customer experiences. That's what I've done all my life. And I am black. And I realized that those three things together, are really unique. And if I don't try to do something with it, when I'm going to die, I'm going to regret it.
Darshan
I have so many questions that come out of this. It's It's so interesting, and I've had a series of conversations because of COVID because of exactly this issue. Before we get further, Silvia, how can people reach you?
Sylvie
Oh, they can reach me on twitter at s liotta at s lowdown on Twitter, my handle on my website equi firehouse.com. Okay.
Darshan
And, um, what you said you're writing a book, is that going to talk a little bit about your experiences? Not feeling not feeling like your voice and your needs were being heard?
Sylvie
Oh, yes, there is a lot about this, you know, that's what made my, my blog very successful both with patients and with providers. So in a sense, my book is a memoir. But I wouldn't be writing the book just to write a memoir, I, I have not gotten the kind of person that that I would be putting time on doing this. I am writing my story to actually help people to use my story to help people understand patience.
Darshan
So So when does the book come out? Do you have any idea?
Sylvie
I'm hoping to finish next weekend? And months? Yeah.
Darshan
So stay tuned. Yes.
Sylvie
And I hope that you invite me to come back when
Darshan
I would love to have you back and have a discussion about that
Sylvie
text to you about, you know, what am I actually doing with with IQUA phi hell, so when I realized I could do something that shine, I started to work and sketch out solutions. That's about something concrete that I could do. And I applied for a grant that was Chinon tech, had the grant. And that was the first grant I've applied for I was a bit nervous. I was I realized that once I saw the application that you know, it had a template, so it just has questions and, and I have all this experience of, you know, writing business plans and, and raising funding and technology. So I wrote the, the, the application, and I teamed up with a marine medicine, Emory School of Medicine, I convinced them to be the pilot for my solution. So we can actually run this new training and tools I'm building at Emory and benchmark them so basically that's the grant so I want this amazing $750,000 grant. It's a two year grant. It started in January of this year, and I'm six months in
Darshan
Wow, wow. So so we're gonna see one of the products of those grants coming out through the book, one of them coming out through exci health and sort of spreading the word that that about how to think through healthcare, from a human centered experience slash a, you know, in a way to address racial disparities is that is that fair to sort of, try to encapsulate that I recognize it's a limited straw.
Sylvie
Now, for a good name to, to call, I'm going to be teaching a course, basically. And the course right now the tape, the name is suppressed. I'm saying this publicly. So you get this exclusive.
Darshan
Breaking news here, hold on a second let's come on.
Sylvie
It's going to empathy centered care in the context of race and culture.
Darshan
Oh, that's a really good title.
Sylvie
It's not, I'm not the one who gets credit for it. It's actually a professor at Emory that I was discussing what I'm doing with and he suggested that and I was like, I love it, because I was trying to find a title that, you know, it's not a bias training, bias training, I have been shown to not have lasting results. Oh, interesting. Um, yes, people forget, you know, after a month, or even less, someone told me that they saw a study, it was saying, three hours. So it really does have an impact on changing people's behavior, I'm looking at doing something that is actually transformative. And I've actually tested this framework, that's a framework that, you know, and innovation I made just before I had cancer, because I felt that I needed a new tool, or I needed to augment the design thinking process, with additional tools to make people really get inside the shoes of customers, and not just project what they think are their bias and all of that,
Darshan
see, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start by challenging you on that, I don't think a patient is a customer. And I think that that you're, as a patient, you're more than a customer, a customer has a transactional relationship. Now,
Sylvie
that's not to what I was bringing this up, thank you for because people are confused. I was working before I had cancer, ah, with customers, as a technologist. Now I understand. Okay, now with you. And so that expertise, I developed this framework, which I tested in the design school in Stanford, and I've taught at several technology companies before I got cancer successfully. And I could see how people told me that, you know, they had never been in the shoes of a cancer of in the shoes of a customer. So clearly, and many of them were, you know, expert designers. So they told me, there is something that you have now and so I realized I could translate this to help people understand patients not
Darshan
love it, because we have the same discussion on if you participate in a clinical trial. Are you a patient? Or are you a subject? Oh, exactly. So we will have to have another conversation about that when the time comes. But you, like I told you, I usually aim for these to be about 15 to 20 minutes, we're well past that. But you're just, we didn't even touch a quarter of the topics that we get into, because you just so fascinating talk to you. Um, Before we continue, what is one question like to ask the audience based on what we discussed?
Sylvie
What questions do I want to ask the audience? What I would love to ask the audience is actually, I could do some market research, you're giving empathy centered care in the context of race as a title for my course.
Darshan
Oh, there you go. I think of empathy centered research and great AI in the context of race to be a long title, but I think it reads a lot easier. So I think it tells me exactly what the books going to tell me the descriptive term. So I think it's interesting tells me what I'd be looking at. I wonder if there's a way maybe an image of something that's that's sort of grabs my attention, because I think people will glance at it just like a website. So I love the title. I just think it'd be kind of cool to have a punchy image that goes with it.
Sylvie
Oh, yes. Working on the, on the design, but you know, whatever. I was trying to do with the executive that it can be called anti bias. I'm not doing the right thing, right? Although, although I, I really want to like find out for my costs, I think that actually by teaching empathy, we can actually reduce bias more effectively. So I do not want to advertise it as an anti bias training, because it's very rent intervention. And, you know, empathy is a strong component of it. So I'm still searching. But that's where I am today,
Darshan
I think very descriptive, and I think it's going to grab a lot of people, especially in healthcare, I think your audience is probably going to be a lot of providers, because in the end, as a provider,
Sylvie
is for providers, so it will be for, you know, faculty providers, but I'm also going to teach in medical schools. So I think we have to go across the spectrum, okay, to have an impact.
Darshan
So what I'm going to do is do a quick recap of our conversation, just to make sure I have it. All right. So when we started off talking about your experience as a ballerina, which I still think we briefly touched on, which I love personally, you use the beauty of being a ballerina, and you saw that in being a technologist. And then you, you, you encountered that in the context of being a cancer survivor. I really want to talk about your your experiences in the first year, the second year, the third year, during COVID, which is fascinating topic by itself. You then talk a little bit about your experiences, being a marketing strategist, and how that's played into your blog. One of the things I really loved is, it's not just being a marketing strategist, you were a designer of the human experience. And you took that to apply to technology. And I'm very curious, and I didn't get a chance to get into this, but as a designer of the human experience the same thing as a UX designer? Or is that a different thing altogether? And good, please,
Sylvie
it is the same thing. I'm just bringing a deeper understanding than I think UX designers have, because of this new intervention that I developed, so I could actually teach my course to UX designers, and they would benefit.
Darshan
So cool. Um, what I also thought was really interesting was the question you went in with, which is, how can I help other cancer patients, which I think is a really interesting perspective, when you are a cancer patient yourself going through it? Obviously, obviously, you're thinking about how can I help others, but you're struggling with it yourself. And I thought that was a really interesting juxtaposition. And one of the questions I wanted to ask you, but we didn't get a chance. I'm hoping to ask you the next time around. Is Did that help? You? Did? Yes. Okay, I want to know more about how that played out. This is
Sylvie
how it just changed my life. It's the day I realized that I could use my pain to help others that I started to not become a victim, and have mental and free and not see my cancer patient as you know, the Blake and a disaster but as an opportunity to actually have meaning of life with meaning
Darshan
didn't help with pain because you're just concentrating outside yourself. Because it's intractable pain
Sylvie
there is there are studies that show that when you want to help others, you know, when you're helping others when you're compassionate, it it you know, it brings happiness. So focusing on on doing something positive to serve others is really what helped me and not think about my problems.
Darshan
It's very counterintuitive to think that helping people helps yourself, and yet it Does, does exactly you talk a little bit about your experiences helping healthcare practitioners see understand the patient experience. You also talked a little bit about the article you wrote for, of getting radiation and how that impacted how how the world saw cancer, and that was impacted not only by your design thinking but but but that's sort of created the blog for you and and then you talked a little bit which I thought was really interesting about you talking to the patient experience team, and then being more defensive about it. Which which again, has a whole bunch of questions that go along with it, but Because isn't the engagement and the interaction, the best part? And then we really got started
Sylvie
a whole podcast on patient experience that you know, just that industry, if you want to talk about it another time.
Darshan
Sorry. We absolutely should. And then you got into something that I'm very passionate about, but quite honestly, I'm not even sure, um, I have a forum, but I'm not sure if I'm the right person for as always the thing, which is racial disparities. It's it's, it's sometimes feels like you're taking on something that is that's not yours, you want to empathize, but you can never, ever I've always get the words mixed up. Can you sympathize, not empathize or empathize, not sympathize, and ever get that right. sympathize. There you go. whichever one it is, I can empathize. But I don't think I can sympathize.
Sylvie
You don't want to sympathize
Darshan
was the other way?
Sylvie
empathy, that would be fun. I understand where you're coming from in? It's not my story to tell. Yes. That that's why I was really excited about speaking to you because, you know, we met on Twitter. And you are extremely open minded about everything. Yeah. And I think that is what makes your podcast so fascinating is that we're seeing someone in this industry, you know, in this conservative industry, life science and health care, that is bringing guests that are that have all those completely different viewpoints, and is talking to them with great interest and curiosity. And I love the fact that when I you said, Oh, I told you can I talk about health equity, and he said, I'd love to talk about health equity.
Darshan
Absolutely. But I mean, obviously, I'd love to have the conversation. As long as you don't feel like, as long as you understand I'm giving you the forum, I don't think I'm I'd be happy to help. I just don't know if I'm the right person, but I'm always there to help in any way I can. And if that means giving the forum happy to do it, but the talking about that, that became more about me than I needed to be. But I appreciate that. Um, we talked about health equity, and one of the things that really and racial disparities. I just started listening to this book, and I probably shouldn't admit this, but it's on YouTube. It's called outliers. Have you ever heard of it or read it?
Sylvie
You have I ever ever read it? Oh, yeah.
Darshan
So I'm wondering if health equity plays into the concept by outliers. And for those of you who've never read the book, or I admittedly, probably like chapter one. But essentially, what the what the book says is that what you see as someone smarter, better, amazing in some way, was really a product of the opportunities that they were given. And what that means is that Bill Gates wouldn't be Bill Gates, if he didn't have access to the, to the tools he had, and think his name is Bill Joy, if I remember correctly from Sun Microsystems, he wouldn't be who he is, if he didn't have the opportunities he was given. And in the same way, if you take away opportunities from someone, they may have worse outcomes. And that is the story of health inequity. It's it's taking away opportunities that people could have been given which would result in better outcomes for them. And that not at all one person or two person basis but an entire racial level. And one of the implications of that so so I want to have
Sylvie
pointed differently, I feel that you know, health equity are really they exist because the system and the way healthcare has been designed for FM it's a system that was designed by white people to meet the needs of white people. And there is this kind of expectation that you know, we are going to grow and and everybody is going to use our products but the work to go and understand the people of different cultures never been done. Yeah. And it's you know, there is this big racism in this country. So the, the, in other countries as well, but the way all the processes are designed, whether it's in healthcare and life, science, in education, and just everything is that, you know, people have bias, implicit bias that they are unconscious of, so you can do your best, have the best intention to build something to help black people. But if you're not seeing the experience, as it really is, you can't do that.
Darshan
I'm agree with you 100%. I guess what I'm trying to understand I am afraid to ask because we're well past our time. But I thought I said exactly the same thing. But it didn't come across that way, which means that I'm missing something, which exactly is the is the point you're making a second ago? Just kind of funny to me. So I thought what I was saying was, the systems need to be differently designed into view, the perspective of different races. And that's not happened. And the result, the result of a inadequately designed system is health inequity.
Sylvie
House in equities. Right. But what is one more thing that's new in the way I'm doing it is that, you know, the whole kind of healthcare system has been thinking about increasing health, cultural competency. I mean, we know that you can never be culturally competent. But I don't think that this is the way to go, either. Because how can you expect that a medical provider, you know, a doctor, that's already his crunched on knowledge that he needs to have to do his job to be culturally competent, you know, in all those different ethnicities and cultures, that is impossible. And so I think that it's not about cultural competence, but it's really about empathy. If we can help people empathize with people that are different, then it doesn't matter that that person is black, indigenous, or person of color.
Darshan
And we got to explore that a little bit more than next time you come on. And then the last thing we sort of ended with was this idea of bias center training, and how it is lack of a better term myopic, and it's not long lasting. And it's funny enough, Lydia green, who actually is listening in as well, and I'll put up her thing. Professor Max bazerman at Harvard, explains why corporate ethics training does not work. Perhaps it's similar to bias training. And that's sort of the point you're making, which is bias training seems to have limited effectiveness. And, and it's time to think beyond that you're proposing a systems level thought process that might change how we approach them, we'll explore that, hopefully, just in time for your book to come up. So that would be kind of cool. Sylvia, two questions more to ask you. The first, what have you learned in the last month?
Sylvie
Oh, a lot. I keep I keep learning. I keep learning every day, the way my mind works is I'm, for example, we said we're going to I never got the chance to discuss that, you know, I'm doing some research right now with patients. Yeah. And every time I speak to a patient, I learned from what they are telling me about how I can change the way I interview them. And I can portray their stories. So I'm, you know, I think the way I would characterize that characterizes is that to to be an innovator, it doesn't matter if you're an innovator for a living, or someone who has an innovative mind. And it doesn't matter if it's work or just daily thing. But just be willing to be challenged by any conversation, that you have anything you read. And you keep improving and growing. That's right. And so I'm constantly learning on everything.
Darshan
I feel like that's almost mindfulness.
Sylvie
There is maybe more finesse that has made me become a tune to this, but it's really more a humility. And, you know, you know, many could say that, you know, I'm a black cancer survivor, just like people go talk to advocate, I'm an advocate, and they talk to me, and that's it. I know it. And no, I am talking to patients constantly, to augment my own understanding, you know, and that's what makes my course unique is that I'm not giving an opinion. I'm doing this to, you know, give kind of a universal understanding of what the black cancer, cancer experiences.
Darshan
I feel like it's going to be related somehow. I'm going to ask the second question. What makes you happy in the last week
Sylvie
what makes me happy, you know, the
Darshan
last What is something that made you happy in the last week? Yes.
Sylvie
Always the same thing. The first two things that make me happy is meditating and walking in nature.
Darshan
Hmm, okay. Okay. I guess it helps that we can now finally walk in nature. So that helps COVID COVID kind of took that away from us for a little bit. And that must have been especially hard for you, in your first and second years of cancer to suddenly be to have that taken away from you. So it's very interesting. I'm going to ask one last question. How can people reach you again?
Sylvie
On Twitter, that's s LEOTIN. My first initial last name. And if I help.com my website, maybe you can write it on.
Darshan
Let's do that right now. Just second. There you go.
Sylvie
There you go.
Darshan
Perfect. And Sylvia was really, really, really great having you on I'd love to have you on again. Thank you so much for coming on.
Sylvie
Thank you for having me. I just I love speaking to you.
Sylvie
This is the DarshanTalks podcast, regulatory guy, irregular podcast with host Darshan Kulkarni. You can find the show on twitter at DarshanTalks or the show's website at DarshanTalks.com
