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Start your week off by tuning into the @Darshantalks Podcast! Host @DarshanKulkarni welcomes back guest @Emmasutcliffe to talk all things Patient Advocacy.

Darshan

Hey everyone, welcome to the doorphone toss, live stream. I'm your host Darshan Kulkarni. It's my mission to help you trust the products you depend on. So as you know, I'm an attorney and a pharmacist and I advise companies with FDA regulated products. So if you think about drugs, wonder about devices or obsessive pharmacy, this is the podcast for you. I have to say that I'm an attorney, but I'm not your attorney. I'm a pharmacist, but I'm not your pharmacist. So this is neither legal advice, nor clinical advice, or patient engagement advice. As our guest is going to talk to us about today. I do these live streams because they're because they are a lot of fun because I find myself learning something new every single time. So it would be nice to know if you're listening. If you like what you hear, please like leave a comment. Please subscribe. If you actually also have questions, please ask the questions. We have a Amazing, amazing interview plan. And our guest is superbet answer questions. So feel free to reach out, ask questions. Additionally, if you like the entire conversation, please shut up. You can find me on Twitter at Darshan on top. So just go to our website at DarshanTalks calm. So today's podcast, today's livestream is going to be about patient, the first patient engagement day. And we had that very recently and we're going to talk about that. So if you are in clinical research, if you are in marketing, if you are in just pure patient engagement. This is probably a conversation you care about. Our guest today is the SVP of patient insights at prime global. She manages a team of patient engagement experts as a center of excellence but also supports all seven of Prime's medical communication agencies in their patient engagement work with former clients. She is a global expert on patient engagement, one of the most published experts and lectures at the University of Cambridge about patient engagement. And like we just mentioned, she ran the first patient engagement day on September 1. So our guests for today, ladies and gentlemen, gentlemen, is Emma Sutcliffe. Am I for you?

Emma

I'm absolutely great. I'm very colorful today the flowers. So if you're all feeling a little bit sleepy, you know this, this blast of color should wake you all up.

Darshan

I think I think the forest thing is here. And yet I see the fall going out as we start talking about so I'm, I'm actually enjoying the last remnants of summer. Yep. Good to have you on. So thank you. Now now talking about new origins talking about changing the season. We are in a change of season, we were talking about the first patient engagement day. So let's start from beginning what is the patient engagement day.

Emma

So um, it really surprised me that we didn't have a day across our healthcare sector, where we shared patient engagement practices. And it's always been a bit of a bugbear of mine, that farmer do it alone if he obsequious I don't be sycophantic. Obviously farmer, my clients, however, farmer do some awesome patient engagement programs, patient support programs, they always have to, and they always will, what farmer don't do very well, is blow their own trumpet, because there's this whole sense of Big Bad pharma and you know, are they kind of influencing us all. And I've always found that rhetoric ridiculous, because the the idea that a company that develops medicines and healthcare solutions for us isn't going to be able to influence this is a nonsense in itself. Of course, the people who develop our drugs and our medicines have a voice in our healthcare system. So it's just the product just kind of just a pop up, I'm just getting rid of that, because it'll just disturb me. And so patient engagement day came about because I've been working with pharma clients, and patient groups and patient opinion leaders for 1520 years. And it just made me despair that we weren't sharing these great, great, great, great case studies and practices about patient engagement. Because the more we share these practices, the more we learn how to get them, right, how to improve them, how to make them better, and better and better. And this all links to something that's very, very close to my heart, which is the patient activation measure. So we're all talking about the importance of a an empowered, patient and engaged patient. But we don't actually share best practices in how to achieve that. So long story short, patient engagement day was literally me saying right, we need to have a day in the calendar every day. A year, when we share best practices, and we listen to what patients have to say, and we listen to how they want to engage with pharma, and we say back to those patient groups, this is all the stuff that we're doing that we think is really good for patient engagement and activation, is it. So, um, I kind of set it up. And you know, it's one of those things where

Emma

if you put a party on, you kind of been are terrified, aren't us, and we're gonna come to my party, it's like, it's like being, you know, 1516 again. But fortunately, more than 150, I think was 156. At last count, different pharma companies joined in on patient engagement day. And I was absolutely blown away by it because pharma, notoriously, don't really work together and share, get together and share best practices. But they did. And, you know, through the day, we're sharing lots of facts and figures and lots of motivational case studies, to demonstrate to all pharma companies and all biotech companies, that actually you can do patient engagement. It's not promotion, it's common sense. You know, if we want to help patients become more activated and more engaged and more empowered, then who better than the people who develop our medicines and services to be part of that, of that learning process. So it was an incredible day, and lots of people did come to the party. And I was genuinely relieved that that happened. And we come out with a webinar with Shona Davis, who was ex Merck. And actually Norma caveny, who's the ex, global director for patient engagement, patient advocacy across Novartis. And Novartis are the gold standard in terms of how do you do patient engagement. And so it was just really a delight that those two, you know, real leaders in the industry in healthcare, join me for this webinar. And at the end of the day, we discussed the case studies, and we had a very candid discussion around the fact that, although we want it to be patient engagement, it's still not mainstream. And there's still a lot that we need to do. And we've got to get all of our infrastructures together. So that, you know, we are making patient engagement mainstream. And one of the ways to do that is to accept that patient engagement has a huge impact on the business of the pharma company, too. So we call that the triple win. So if you get your patient engagement, right, what happens is, you get better medicine services products for patients sooner, it is ratifying now that patient focused drug development, you know, that you are 19% more likely to launch a medicine and have that approval if you've included patients in your clinical design program. So better stuff for patients, better business for farmer, we get those farmer assets through the pipeline sooner. And actually, in the process of engaging, we activate patients, and that has a huge impact on society, because people who are more active about their health, and there's four levels of patient engagement, it's also been ratified that the more the more that a patient scores on the patient activation measure, you know, of those four levels, you are up to 28% more likely to consume fewer healthcare resources, literally, we don't have to see people turning up at the ER department. Because they are activated, they are informed they are knowledgeable about how to manage health crises and health situations. So that's the third part of the triple when engaged, activated patients consume fewer healthcare resources for society, which means our society can pull its resources to the people who need it. So that was literally like a five minute lecture on patient engagement day, but as you can tell, it was just such a success. And in terms of the change of season, we are really a huge turning point for how patient engagement is perceived, measured, justified. So I'm literally goose bumping at where we're at. You know, it's been an incredible month actually, for patient engagement. Patient lay summaries and we've seen new reports and new things. But, you know, long story short, September the first patient engagement date was literally about saying where are we? What's next and Oh, boy, have we done well, and oh boy, are we going to do better and better and better. So next September 1 20 to 2022. It's just going to be awesome and cumulative again. So I'll stop now.

Darshan

I love that you are no, I think, I think you did a really, really important breakdown of of showing the value of patient engagement and understanding how to bring some of the stakeholders to the table to say, let's have this conversation. So let me start from the beginning.

Emma

Just dissect all of that.

Darshan

Just a little bit,

Emma

a description or just, you know, like, literally me on my soapbox, you've sent me off now I'm running.

Darshan

Well, I'm good, I'm glad. So let me ask you this question. When he said patient engagement, Was this something that you guys created? Or was this a national thing? Or do you are you hoping it'll eventually go national? Where are we right now?

Emma

It was a global event. So, um, so yes, you know, you know, thank you so much to all the people at prime global, who put all the cases together, but the facts and figures together, created lots of toolkits, those toolkits were downloaded by, you know, competitor agencies, I mean, you know, we all succeed if we work together, and on this day that were downloaded by by pharma company, patient engagement advocates. So what we had was the start of really the initiative, that for one day, every year, we put the competition aside, and we take a collective healthcare measure of how we're doing on patient engagement. And the focus for this inaugural day was unplanned patient voice. So that is a collective endeavor that we must all commit to. So I'm not going to say what it's gonna be for next year, cuz I want to retain some ownership. But yes, it was literally my colleagues, my kind of gltn in prime global, giving us resources, giving us, you know, time and remit to say, yes, set this day up, you know, you set this day up, it was incredible how many people joined in. And what I'm hoping is, this is no longer mine, you know, what happens is it does actually go on, and it becomes its own initiative. I really would not have expected, you know, more than 150 pharma companies on September 1 to be sharing their case studies and asking questions, and how would it have with it. And what was really lovely was we had some real, really impactful patient opinion leaders who also joined in and they gave their time for free, and they put videos out with us, and they joined us in the webinar, too. And so what you also had was that pincer movement, really of patient group saying, we also want this, we want to see pharma collaborating, and we want you to collectively get together and join those dots and say, Where are the flaws in the system? You know, how can we keep this moving forward? What you do see from all patient engagement initiatives is you get these huge drives, you know, you know, 2014, I think it was PFM D launched. And then 2018 2017. And, you know, there are people out there who feel free to correct me on my timelines. But there were, you know, 2017, we saw the EU, for example, starting to mandate patient lay summaries. And then a company like envision who our competitor agency, and companies like Oxfam, or Genesis, again, competitor medcomms, agency, they took the patient liaison report and they created toolkits. And as recently as the 18th of August, you know, octapharma Genesis with a group of pharma were publishing how we then make those, those plain language summaries more innovative for patients. And then what we're now doing is taking those letters and turning them into patient voice publications. So what you see from all people who are really committed to patient engagement is the collaboration rarely works, because there's enough work for us all to do. There's enough business for us all to do. So it's for our collective good to each take our little bits of expertise and keep pushing it forward. And you know, that is really the essence of what we should be doing. You know, we should be doing it. pharma has a voice in health care. Med comms agencies have a voice in health care because of course we write educational materials. We are a key part of patient activation. And so for me I've you know, I've been in med comm since 1996. And it's been so exciting that Last 18 months have really shown us what can happen when we collaborate, answer healthcare challenges. And it just delights me because this is how it should be. And this is how it can be. So yes, patient engagement day was set up by, you know, the prime patient group. But lots of my colleagues and competitors are also doing great things. And it's that collaboration that will make us all i mean that the ethos of prime global is work brilliantly together. And that's, you know, with our clients, with our colleagues, with our competitors, because that's how we move things forward. So it's honestly it's, you know, I think it's the best time to be in healthcare comms, it's, it's wonderful,

Darshan

which is really the, the, it's an amazing, I've been helping, okay, communication, because I think for the first time, you get to actually go, what do you want as a patient and get true feedback and engage in a way that's meaningful to get their feedback? So let me ask you this question that that I'm trying to also understand a little bit more about. You talked about the case studies, companies were sharing. Was it anything that stood out to you as this is? This was surprising what sort of was everyone basically afraid to step out too far? Because of the lack of regulation?

Emma

No, no one is afraid step out too far, really farmer have got this. And it comes from the perspective. And actually, Laura Macavity, articulated this and as did Shona Davis joined the webinar much more eloquently than I possibly can. So what they basically said was, you have to do patient engagement, because it's the right thing to do. And once you establish that mindset, once you put the ethics and the the ethical reasons for doing patient engagement, front and center, then the compliance piece naturally follows. And that's not being trite about the importance of regulatory compliance at all, what it's saying is patient engagement, and patient activation is the right thing to do. And we establish that and the practices then follow, because everybody wants to get it right. You know, the patient groups want to get it right, the patient leaders want to get it right. Healthcare associations want to get it right. So when you have so many groups and stakeholders in healthcare, wanting to make patient engagement work, then you will find the compliant way forward. And I have to say, you know, groups like the A BPI groups like efpia are also collaborating with the major patient groups. And they are, you know, filling in and they're keeping up with the pace too. So, you know, we were in a situation, let's be really honest, we're in a situation, it was just around the birth of my second child. So that would be 2008. Right? Once a month, always and you measure everything according to, you know, your children. But I remember very distinctly in 2008, we were a real low for belief in the pharmaceutical industry. And at that point, there was I think it was something like 270 publications a year damning the pharmaceutical industry.

Emma

I'm, you know, that sounds like a drop in the ocean, because there are 20,000 publications about oncology every year. So relatively speaking, you know, what's the big deal, but what this does tell us is almost every day and a half in that year, there are some negative, damning message about industry. And actually, that was not helpful. I remember at the time, just saying that this isn't really of any benefit to better patient outcomes. And a member presenting at a baby plan directors Institute in the in the UK, just saying, you know, we we're not getting this right. You know, we need to be speaking up for farmer, we need to learn lessons. But actually, if we push farmer away and out of our healthcare systems, it's literally choking the baby out the bathwater. And since then, what we've seen is pharma have repurpose they they have, you know, taken inside they've internalized, they've reached out to patient groups, and they've they've said very, very transparently, how do we perform better, you know, now we're at a stage when we almost routinely have patient reported outcome measures and clinical trials. We almost routinely have patients contributing to clinical trial design, you know, with Starting CL regulators asked for those patient post outcome measures. So now we're at the point where we can say, okay, is this actually improving patient activation, the patient activation measure has four levels to it. One is where a patient is almost completely passive about their general health care. They are terrified and stultified and not not taking any responsibility or accountability towards their health. The second stage is where they perhaps want to be more activated and involved in their health but lack the knowledge. And that's when we start to see the value of pharma and biotech, because the patient engagement and education programs they provide are fantastic. So then we start to see that that partnership model, stage three is then that a patient feels that they can take action around their health, they can say, Well, how do I get a diagnosis? How do I get access to my treatment, so we start to see that patient activation measure score go up, and we start to see that, you know, a patient wants to be involved in their health. And then the top level tier four is where actually a patient, a patient is highly motivated, highly activated. However, under times of stress, under life, stressors, a pandemic, for example, they might then start to struggle with their, you know, activation around their health. So what we've got, as we're starting to measure, this is huge patient engagement programs, patient activation programs, different initiatives from from pharma companies, that are all adding to that patient activation measure, you know, all of these programs and initiatives, or improve society's activation around their health. So what I'm really excited about is we're starting now to work knowledge farmers and biotechs contribution to patient engagement. And we're starting to, you know, see our healthcare professionals that they are now starting to say well, actually pharma company x pharma company, why provide excellent patient engagement initiatives. So it's beyond the pale. So we've we've talked about being beyond the pale for a long time, and we now are beyond the pale. So I am delighted that my former colleagues are now you know, getting the merit and the credit they deserve for providing not just the pill, but the health care, education, patient engagement services, they deserve the credit for that, and they will keep improving it. But this is just such a great place to be compared with, you know, that that 2008 model, I've just lambasted farmer whenever we could. We're now at a place where we're saying, you know, I'm sure farmers got a patient engagement program that we can tap into fantastic, you know, I can't believe it's been 12 years in the making, but here we are. Haley

Darshan

says, here's a really interesting question for me, because I, there are two things that jumped out for me during the conversation. The first is the fact that you are you talked about how efpia and adpi and everyone else's sort of finally, for lack of a better term seem to like, which I think is amazing. What I what I think is a conscious, sorry, a, an interesting sort of conversation you didn't have is the FDA, because the FDA, in my opinion, from a compliance perspective, is still trying to feel its way through what patient engagement should be, there's no doubt about it, that they value it. But how they regulate it is something they don't, they're unclear about an industry on this side of the pond industry still trying to figure out how to how to handle that. What I think is also interesting for me, is this other piece you mentioned, which is you're talking about how especially on your side of the pond, there are patients are finally seeing the value of engaging with pharma and they're seeing better better outcomes from it. So it's, it's less about pharma. Let's be honest, in the end, none of what we do matters of patients aren't helped. But But the point is that patients are finally seeing this outcome. But one of the things that that jumps out at me, especially as someone who, who sort of provides assistance in the context of advertising review and the like, is I forget what it was. There was there was an event and People from the UK and Europe and stuff saw the number of drug ads in the US. My immediate reaction to that was, that's ridiculous. There are too many What? Why do you need to? Tell me about drugs? Talk to the doctor, it's overkill. I'm surprised that in patient engagement, you're not seeing that same reaction, don't talk to me, talk to my doctor, do you see an evolution in? in advertising? Do you see an evolution in compliance? And could you talk them through it like 19 different points? So feel free?

Emma

19 different points, you know, you know, give me 20. You know, I'll kind of you know, chat to you all day about about different points. I'm going to actually do the politician thing, which I'm going to answer based on things that I know about random things I don't know about. So I'm not going to try and kind of answer all those 19 points. But but it is correct that there is a different approach and a different environment around patient engagement. You know, you're the US in North America. And also, we don't need to forget the underrepresented populations and underrepresented regions. So the setup in the in North America is different, because it's much, it's done much more in a formal way through the patient advocacy groups. Now, this comes from the fact that your healthcare system systems there are slight are different. And by that, you know, it is actually if you look at the American Association of oncology, for example, if you look at ASCO guidelines, and the like, and, and, and rules, it's very clear, within those medical organizations that patient advocate, advocacy is perceived to be something that a physician and HCP, it's part of their remit. So it is different, because there is, you know, within your health within your medical infrastructure, there is almost a call to action, that patient advocacy is something that HCP should be encouraged to contribute to. So what you've got in the US is a much deeper and broader patient advocacy group infrastructure. And the way that those groups work with pharma is actually transparent and very well structured. So the patient empowerment movement, which is really stronger, this side of the pond, in Europe is much more around almost an individual patient as part of a patient group, perhaps, but more about the individual patients taking the lead, and then that individual ownership. So what you do see are quite different patient engagement programs between those two regions. So in Europe, you will see pharma companies creating patient engagement programs that are about activating that patient, because let's not forget, certainly within the UK, we have a national health service. So actually, you know, our patients, if they're activated, they can, you know, seek a better, they can circumvent or short term short circuit, a diagnostic pathway, and they can, you know, make better cries about access to treatment. So, it's a diff, it's a different political healthcare infrastructure. But also the merits of the North American the US system are that the professional relationships and partnerships between patient advocacy groups, and farmer are robust, and they deliver a really good return both the advocacy group and for the farmer group. So it's different. It's, those two different infrastructures do have an impact on, I suppose the the style and manner and the content. What we need to bear in mind, though, is that globally, patients will get together and they will share information and experience because we have, you know, we have the internet and we've had, we've had this for a long time. So a patient in the US if they're not getting the information they want, they will seek information and advice from a patient in another part of the world. So, you know, what you've got is this underlying I want you Say

Emma

it's always it's pioneering, you know, patients are pioneering. So they will abide with the rules and regulations of a region to a certain extent. And then they'll do what they need to do to get the stuff that they need. So any patient and great engagement program from a global pharma company, of course, it has to be percipient, around the regional proclivities and regulations. But they're also extremely mindful. And this is where the ethics comes in ahead of the compliance, because it's the right thing to do. patient engagement is the right thing to do. So the regional compliance challenges will ironed out because ultimately, patient engagement is the right thing to do. Keep going 18 points, but I think it probably made it hopefully a relatively decent point. If you

Darshan

did, you did. You're amazing. Here's the problem. We can keep talking about this forever, as you know, no, well, we only usually talk for about 1520 minutes, we're 30 are ready 31. So you're just a fascinating person to talk to. Well, thank you so much for coming up. As you know, I do get to ask you for questions. So the first question, you would like to ask the audience based on what we've discussed,

Emma

I would like to Oh, dosha. And again, again, you're you're cracking at this. I always think I'm prepared for your podcast, and I never AM. Yeah, this is the third one I've done with you. I should know better, right? What would I like to ask the audience, I would like to ask the audience, how they feel about patient engagement isn't about to go to the next level. So we've got our basic patient education programs, we've got our support programs, what's the next level for patient engagement? Because I think we're just at that point.

Darshan

So I'm gonna answer as you know, I answer the first question, could you give you one answer, we'll see more as they come up, come out. Um, I can only speak from the US side of the equation. And I think that the US equation is there's a rising amount of interest in patient engagement. But I think there are a couple of things that are not working as well as I would have liked. And it's, it's funny, I feel like there was a push a few months ago, even a few years ago, maybe before COVID. And COVID, sort of quashed a lot of things that I can't figure out if that's COVID. Lack of steady movement forward. And that might have been because everyone started focusing on COVID. That changed that, that. And again, no matter the hammer, everything looks like a nail, the compliance portions that I wanted to have, so that I can enable my clients to take the right steps that we seem to assemble there. But I think the intent is still there. I think that the FDA, and everyone else is saying, We want this to happen. But until you tell us how we have to we have to be careful. There have been instances, as you know, where patient engagement programs have been used as a cover for inappropriate engagement. So the question is, how do you? And the funny thing is, it gets rephrased as inappropriate engagement, based on what we like to call Monday morning quarterbacking, someone looks at the thing after the fact and goes, Oh, that's wrong. But during that didn't even strike us. But because there are no clear rules. Yeah. And we're literally building the ship as we, as we plan to sail it. You start going, we think this is okay. And somebody gets to us use foresight and sort of come back with answers. But the point being, I think that the future is bright, but it sounds like you guys are at an inflection point. I think we're still gaining steam come to that inflection point. I'd be very curious from patient advocates themselves from patients themselves from healthcare providers, telling me I'm wrong because I would love to hear that I'm only seeing one side of the story that there's a whole other stories are happening, and I'm just not seeing it. But this moment, that's what it feels like to me in the US from a compliance perspective. Yeah. Are you seeing it differently? Have you heard differently,

Emma

I am seeing it differently. So first of all quarterbacking, like Monday morning quarterback a like you know, my husband like absolutely adores American football. And it took it's taken him seven years to explain to me what Hail Marys is This is a hail mary. And so I'm obviously on catch up because I'm a bit behind cuz I'm quite busy. And so I'm really grateful that you gave me this Monday morning quarterbacking I'm just gonna like use it every Monday now as far as I have made myself feel more knowledgeable about American football, because that's funny, but I'm gonna give you some direction. So it's really obvious to say check out our YouTube channels. But as part of patient engagement day, we invited some patient opinion leaders to candidly speak in their own video, and the videos are on YouTube. And they're sure you don't have to spend forever watching them. But they are telling farmer what they're doing well, and they're telling farmer what they're not doing well. So when you provide these kinds of mechanisms for patients to speak up, and when farmers are courageous enough to go, Okay, we're gonna listen, that's when you start to eradicate the bad practices. Second part of that is, this is exactly the reason why we created pep talks, which step a pep talk or pep talk, but it stands for patient engagement practices, because you're absolutely right. We don't have legislation or guidelines or rules or regulations, we have good publication practice, we don't have good pressure getting practice, but it will come and creating pep talks. And that's one of our Twitter channels is to share those best practices. Because again, the more we share them, the more we iron out the problems and the more that we correct the things that could start going down an inappropriate path, and bring them back on track. So this is one of the things that you get to do as an agency. And this is why, you know, people say to me, Why do you not work as patient gamehag within a pharma company? The reason I don't is because I really liked the independence, obviously, farmers are our clients. And you know, please give us some patient engagement work, we will do it really brilliantly for you, obviously, I have to say that, however, what you get to do within an agency is you are on the pulse of all the regulations, you will also have the ear of the patient groups and the patient leaders. So you know, you know, at grassroots level, what is it is it acceptable, and you also get to hear about what is and isn't acceptable. So what you get to do in an independent role like mine is, is you're able to kind of go hang on a minute, guys, you know, greater good, my former clients, No, you shouldn't be doing that. And that will get you into trouble. But also, you should be doing this, because you need to be more, you know, courageous, and confident that your compliance partners in your organization, are going to get you into trouble. And it comes from that place of, you know, the, the beauty of being in an independent organization is you can see all the different parts. And you can see where things could go wrong. And I absolutely And fortunately, within patient engagement sort of calls. We're kind of all learning together still, because we're all learning from patients. And we're learning what is and isn't acceptable. And what's really great about my role, for example, is that, you know, I can honestly say to pharma clients and even prospective clients, no, no, it's a no, it's a no because of this, but you can do this. And it's, maybe it's just me, maybe it's just amazing people I work with, but they're quite happy to take that direction and guidance. And I love that because I don't ultimately have a farmer asset to bring through the pipeline. What I have to do is help pharma clients, and patient groups to get the stuff they need. And if that gets a really good medicine through the pipeline quicker to patients, everybody wins. But it also means that patients get education and they get activation and they get support programs. That's also great. So I'm a I'm a lucky lady to this role.

Darshan

I love it. As you know, next question. When is something you've learned in the last month?

Emma

Well, I just learned today, what Monday morning quarterbacking is. That's way too easy.

Darshan

There you go.

Emma

I will tell you what's happened in the last month. Like I said, you know, there's been a really good publication and it's open farmer collaboration, and it's produced by competitor by Oxfam Genesis. And they've actually just published guidelines on how to write a plain language summary and the use of plain language summary. Now, I patient, we're all about patient activation measures. But they all lead to each other. You know, the point is, you know, if we do a good patient language summary, we then know how to do a good patient for publication, we are all about activating the patient. So it's about joining the dots. So I've learned that in the last month so you know, Far be it for me to promote a competitor. But you know what we all benefit?

Darshan

Absolutely. Next question, what is something that's made you happy in the last week, nation

Emma

engagement day, I'll be the first September. So it's less than a week ago was more than a week ago. But that was huge. And that wasn't me actually happy. I think my kids go back to school. Oh, my God.

Darshan

And then the last question, which is, how can people reach you? And we've been flashing it all all throughout the conversation, but Well, on Twitter, they can reach you at study, Emma?

Emma

Yeah, also, you know, join up to our pep talks on our Twitter, because we are independently sharing case studies and answering all these questions. Somebody just today said, What's trial thinking? Never heard of it. So you know, what we're trying to do is create a channel where people can, you know, ask those questions for a friend, or we can actually share what doesn't work and what does work. So I'd really love it if people started to use pep talks Twitter, to keep this moving forward. on LinkedIn, you know, you can you can follow me there and, you know, email the team and, you know, let us put your patient engagement research together, because we're good at it.

Darshan

There you go. There you go. Again, this was amazing. Thank you so much for being on. This was perfect, and I hope it would hope to have you back soon again.

Emma

Well, I'm definitely gonna be back on September the second next year after the second patient engagement.

Darshan

There you go. There you go. I'm hoping before that, but we'll talk soon.

Emma

Awesome. Thank you for your time.

Darshan

Thank you again.

Emma

Bye now. This is the DarshanTalks podcast, regulatory guy, irregular podcast with host Darshan Kulkarni. You can find the show on twitter at DarshanTalks or the show's website at DarshanTalks.com

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