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Monitoring Clinical Research

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On this episode of @Darshantalks, host @DarshanKulkarni will be joined by guest @EricaDevine, to discuss Patient Centricity Do’s & Don’ts.

Darshan

Hey everyone, welcome to darsan talks. I'm your host Darshan Kulkarni. It's my mission to help you trust the products you depend on. So as you know, I'm an attorney, I'm a pharmacist, and I advise companies with FDA regulated products. So if you have a question about drugs, you think like devices, you consider cannabis or you obsess over pharmacy? This is the podcast for you. I do have to say that both my guests and I are are both pharmacists. So this is not clinical advice. I'm a lawyer. This is not legal advice. It's educational. So I do these podcasts. Because there are a lot of fun, I get to talk to really smart people like my guest today. And I find myself learning something new each time. So if you like what you're hearing, please like subscribe. If you think other people would benefit, please share. If you think that there are some good conversations happening and you you want to contribute, please write in we'd love to hear from you. If you will find me You can always find me on Twitter as DarshanTalks, or just go to our website at DarshanTalks calm. today's podcast is going to be about well, I was gonna say that, that today's podcast is going to be about patient centricity and the do's and the don'ts. And we may very well get into it. But what I'm really excited about is the fact that we're going to take a multi stakeholder conversation and angle an aspect of this. So that should be a lot of fun. So if you are in patient centricity, if you're in clinical trials, if you're in marketing, if you are in medical affairs, any of those things, you're probably impacted, and you should probably care about today's discussion. Our guest today is this is a stakeholder experienced lead at sukha. I do want to clarify that she does not necessarily represent the opinions of Otsuka. But these are her personal opinions. And that is a little scroll that explained that exact same thing. Our guest for today is can also be found. I'm gonna try to put that banner up if I can. Well, I'll I'll put that out in a few seconds, but she can be found on LinkedIn. And she can also be found at brahma [email protected] So our guest today, Erica, define Erica Haider, Sean,

Erica

how are you?

Darshan

I'm excited. Every time I get to talk to you, I'm excited because I learned something new each time. And you are fascinating. So there's that.

Erica

Thank you, you're gonna make me blush here.

Darshan

It's true. So so let's let's talk a little bit First, let's kind of start with something you were doing. And you explain that you're working on, which is this idea of patient benchmarking patient experience benchmarking and, and how that feeds into the, into the journey and doing a journey map. So So could you talk a little bit about what is the patient experience journey mapping?

Erica

Yeah, absolutely. So you know, journey mapping is not not a new concept. I mean, mapping is done in many, many different markets, definitely done in pharma. It's been done in many other organizations that I have worked in, there's really different types of mappings. So this is probably one of those things that sometimes they kind of get muddled together. But you know, there are different types of mappings or different types of purposes. So there's mapping that really tracks what I would call activities, you know, that tells us what is happening with patients. So really, it would look at behaviors, like how often somebody calls a call center, or maybe it'll tell you what volume of patients go to your website, instead of going through, you know, a call center for information or something like that. So it really tracks activities. There's also what I would call almost product mapping. So you know, it's really putting the product at the center, and then really understanding how the product kind of inserts throughout different points within that treatment journey for the patient. So, you know, again, they're all great. They're all great types of mapping. But the one part, I think that sometimes we're missing is the experience mapping. So while we do a lot of mapping to understand process, product mapping and activity mapping, we don't always understand the why somebody is doing some things. So you know, I think there's also this whole part of what what is leading to the behaviors, what is the emotional component somebody is experiencing, as they go through not only their daily life living with a condition but also when they come into contact with you or your organization. So I think one of those big things from a patient centric or even a human centric component is really understanding what is their experience with us. So you know, I think gives us a whole different view through the lens on how we are really delivering on these, you know, on these opportunities to better serve patients, caregivers, and of course, other stakeholders within that, that paradigm.

Darshan

So let's let's make it simpler. When should I be considering doing a journey map? Because it sounds like it can be used for a variety of things. But when does it rise to a threshold of Okay, you know what, let's take a step back. And journey map. When does that make sense?

Erica

So I think it's something you should always be doing. And the other part of this too, and I think, not to make a mistake to understand that this is like a one time thing like you put together a map, and then that that holds true throughout, you know, perpetuity, no, this is something you have to really revisit often. And I think any industry, whether you're in pharmaceuticals, whether you're in any other type of industry that serves customers, patients or any end user, you really have to have a fundamental understanding one of what are the touch points that those patients are walking through as far as their interactions with your organization? But also, from a holistic standpoint? What else is going on with the majority of your types of customers that even drive them to you? What else happens within their ecosystem, in addition to their interactions with you? And how do they feel about it? And how does that directly play into how they perceive your brand? How does that play into how they perceive trust with your organization? So you know, again, I don't think this is a it's not a finite type of thing. And the other part that I think is really important, and that's somebody, it kind of dawned on me when I heard somebody say this map is the artifact. So the map is the visual representation of that experience, it makes it easier to convey that to others within the organization. But what's more important is really the process that gets you there to create the artifact. So I think, really looking at the methodology that you're using to capture that experience is critical to making sure that you are being representative of your end user. And also that, you know, you're not missing the boat on some certain things, because you're not asking the right questions, or you're not sampling enough people. Oh, Sean, I cannot hear you, you might be on mute.

Darshan

myself to avoid you hearing clicking, but thank you, what I'm hearing you say is that the important part of this is a continuous process. And don't get caught up in the final product, which is great. It tells you where things are, but in many ways is just a snapshot of where where you are in the process and and how in this specific instance, the patient engages with your product. Now one of the things that that I think about is this idea that we were trying to get into patient centricity that but and patient engagement, the problem with that process is the patient's the core of everything we do. So if you start doing a journey map, it would be so big, so unwieldy. So do you do you go it's important to look at the 500,000 foot view? Or is it more important to look at little chunks? And just look at each one of those individually? And what are the what is the impact of each?

Erica

Yeah, so I think if you go too high level you are, it's, it's not really going to tell you anything actionable. So I think you do have to narrow it down a bit to decide what are those key critical elements, you have the most influence and ability to impact. So, you know, I think you have to have to recognize to a degree as an organization, that you can't be great at everything, but there are certain differentiating factors that, you know, are non negotiable, you're going to have to, you're going to have to deliver a seamless and fantastic experience. And so I think, you know, if I'm looking at this, you know, I'm looking at kind of those things where, you know, not only is it potentially a direct interaction, and looking at those touch points throughout, but also are they are they areas where we have an ability to make a change. And so you know, maybe that's where you kind of start but then you grow from there. So I think it starts to kind of kind of starts to spiral out because you, whatever you come out with that artifact in that process is going to inform certain things that you need to dive into a little bit more deeply and those tend to not only stay within one function area of Have an organization, it tends to impact many. And so you really get to see that ripple down effect as well. And I think it also really enhances collaboration across different functional areas with the common goal of really delivering an optimal experience.

Darshan

So you're talking about this idea of seeing the downstream effects and you start from a from a maybe not a 500,000 foot view, maybe you start with a 50,000 foot view. And that that's, that helps identify some key processes. But I imagine that it's like any other map, which is what do you choose to focus on? So in that, you what, what I heard you talk about is the ramifications on the different people involved, the different groups involved. And that's great, but I'm just thinking from a clinical trial perspective, that is such a massive undertaking. But you tell me, then, I'm going to do the same thing in promotional engagement, I'm going to do the same thing and non promotional engagement. And I'm going to do the same thing, the pieces that connect each of those, each one of those is a Herculean task, the more I think about it, and it it risks, what I what I'm hearing you talk about, I hear you talk about, to me, it risks becoming one of those congressional inquiries, which just takes decades to go through. And at the end of it, it's out of date from when you started. So how do you? How do you tackle a practical perspective? Something that is munchable? That is, I love that term, right, actually munchable? Something that is munchable, something that addresses the current need, and yet is useful for addressing future needs?

Erica

That is a great question. And I think that that is a, that is the challenge that we are all faced with. So you know, how do you keep it? How do you keep it relevant? How do you maintain it, you know, there's a whole other kind of school of thought around patient experience management, which also heavily leverages digital capabilities. So a lot of these things that you're doing become automated, and are actionable and are done in real time. And I think, you know, different organizations are in different different points in that journey. As far as how technologically capable they are, in order to do those certain things. I think that for everybody, though, that that would be the that would be the end goal, right? So you really can't do it, and have something that stays evergreen, unless you are leveraging your digital capabilities. And using a lot of that quantitative data and marrying that with some of that qualitative data that you're putting together for perhaps your mapping artifact. But again, I would go back to the fact that you can't eat the elephant all at one time. And maybe this also kind of gets into another area where I think that you you have to pilot things to a degree, I mean, you don't want to do some massive rollout. And you've kind of tested the waters. And I think piloting gives you the opportunity to be able to get something up and running quickly. But then you can learn from it and then decide how you can scale up moving forward. And sometimes that does require invest investment that requires commitment into other areas that may or may not exist today within an organization. So I think you have to start somewhere. And so for for us in others, I think, you know, pharma as a whole, we haven't done probably our due diligence. As far as understanding experience, we tend to look at activity, and we tend to look at business metrics and how it impacts the business is bottom line. But there's this whole middle window that we we really haven't even scratched the surface on. So I think it's probably gonna sound somewhat trite, but you got anything is better than probably what we're doing now, which is, you know, asking them, asking them how they feel, and what is their experience, and then seeing how that grows and evolves.

Darshan

So I'm gonna ask a pretty basic question, which is, and I don't want to know specifically how, how it's done in your company, I think because that's not the point. But I imagine that there are two different approaches to this, at least the one approach and the one approach is we're curious about what's happening with our patients, and we want to understand what's going on. And that's almost a proactive, but a difficult beast to tackle because there's no focus. It's just, I just, I'm just kidding. The alternative is of management comes out and says, we have this problem. And the problem might be something as similar to patients are not picking up medications that were filled for them. And and address Why is that happening, and now you have a goal and you're kind of backtracking journey map from there. In your experience, what is more common?

Erica

I would say it's probably the latter, we tend to be very reactive. And I see this in form, I see it in other organizations, too, you have the problem, and then you try to figure out how you're going to solve it. But you know, getting into a whole other topic of discussion, which I'm sure you know, we don't really have the time to delve into today is really this whole leveraging of AI and predictive analytics, and machine learning. You know, all of us want to get to a point where we're not just putting out fires anymore, but we're actually troubleshooting the issues before they arise. So, you know, I would hope, I would hope that the end goal here is that we're not, we're not just chasing our tails, so to speak, and trying to kind of put the fires out as they come. But really, as we start to uncover what's happening with these patients, or caregivers, or other stakeholders in that ecosystem, we can better understand what what challenges them, you know, what vexes them? What parts in the process, can we make a lot better, some could be a very simple tweak that we're just missing, others could be an enormous lift, that is just like, doesn't make sense to try to get that extra 2%, when you have to put 120% of your resources into doing it. So I look at it as a foundation to understand a little bit better, as to where you want to spend your energy to help you inform the certain, you know, programs, you either stop, maybe you keep them going, maybe you enhance them, or the gaps that we're not even meeting that we didn't know existed before. So, again, I think it's a launching point. And I also think that, you know, I thought it was interesting, you said Darshan, like you just kind of, Is it really you put it together? Because you're just curious. And I think curiosity is part of it? Sure, we definitely understand that. We need to better understand and walk in the shoes of our patients as it as they live through their conditions and their environments. But if you're not taking ownership, like you have to if you're going to ask a question, for instance, in a survey, you better make sure that you're also having somebody that's owning the feedback from that question and is closing the loop with your, you know, respondent. So, you know, it's, I think people get fatigued with surveys and other types of quantitative methods, because they put their answers out there, and then nothing really comes of it. And so you lose trust in people and they stop responding. They're like, well, what good does it do me to answer this survey, if nobody's gonna fix the issues? So I think you have to be committed to really taking it full circle to and again, I think that goes back to you can't, you can't eat the elephant all at one time? Because if you do, you're you're just biting off more than you can chew. And then you're not really taking the full responsibility to take correction or, you know, correction for those specific problem points. So yes, there's a lot to unpack there. It's not an easy task. And the other thing is two organizations are structured differently. Some have chief patient officers in their executive leadership that really is responsible specifically for patient experience or end user experience. Some peppered throughout their organizations where everybody is kind of tasked with being a chief patient officer, and really being able to put patients first and really realize that they are the end user and their input matters. It's essential to being able to meet their needs. So it's, it's a, I don't want to say it's a new school of thought, I think it's been, I think there's been an appetite to get this right. But I think the methods by which we roll it out hasn't totally been flushed out just yet. Especially in pharma, I would say there are like 100

Darshan

directions we can take this conversation I'm trying to sort of pull myself together. I mean, it's delicious, almost to go after the AI predictive analytics machine learning direction, but it's just too easy. Well, let's let's let's sort of keep it the basics a little bit. So so you have if you're going to A journey map. Could you describe the process in general, like a 50,000 foot view level of what that looks like? Where do you start? How do you identify what the goals are? And kind of that process that a little bit?

Erica

Sure, sure. I mean, I would probably look across it. And it depends on how large the organization is. But you know, I mean, many start with their own function areas, I think it always makes most sense to really get a discovery or an understanding generally, across the organization, if you can pull the right people together, to understand how often or how many times they're really touching, you're creating a direct interaction. So I would consider that a touch point, if you can understand where you know, the majority of your touch points fall within an organization, I think that that sounds like a good place to start. You also want to look at how much influence oops, go ahead.

Darshan

Cuz you're right, that is an amazing place to go. But what, let's just discuss journey mapping for patients, though, because when you start saying that you only look at field forces and go, this is where you connect to the patient. And that's a touch point, or do you look at, for example, legal, who never likely meet the patient, but everything that gets signed needs to be run by them? And when you start doing that, that the complexity level increases exponentially? So how do you decide what the key stakeholders are? Like? Is it from let's first decide what the goal is? And then once we have the goal, pull that in and then kind of go from there? Or is it we just want to get a data dump? And then sift through it?

Erica

Yeah, I think you do have to do some discovery. First, you have to really understand what what is your organization done so far? Is there certain themes that are rising to the top that have been continuously a problem? So Well, it may not have come directly from a patient, for instance, or a caregiver, you might be hearing it from your field folks that are liaising with doctors offices, or other stakeholders within that, within that ecosystem that are saying, we know this is a problem. So I would say if you if you have a glaring issue, yes, it absolutely makes sense to to not keep those separated, you have to be also looking at, you know, systems that haven't been working historically. But I also think you have to, I think, really, and in my experience across organizations that I've worked in even my pretty much my whole career where there is so many different areas that touch different parts of that journey, or support the journey. So like, for instance, legal, I think this is a really interesting clip, just take that, for example. Know, the legal team does not necessarily interface with patients or caregivers or whatever directly. But they have a huge say in how the organization operates compliantly in a trust in a trustworthy fashion with those individuals. So if I was looking at the legal team, for instance, they absolutely should have access to any type of experience mapping from a patient because you can always take several degrees of separation factor somebody so let's just say you have a process where legal is like nope, this is the we've always done it this way. Farmers never ever tried that before. We're just it's a blanket it No. If they understood, though, that, you know, maybe there's others that are working in a certain fashion that works, or there's a better way that we can serve be serving a patient, for instance, and it could be just taking it to marketing materials, or educational materials that you're putting out. If it takes too long to get educational materials out to a healthcare provider, or a patient that really is asking for it. They're saying we need this information. But for whatever reason, our processes too onerous through the legal side of life, then there's there's an opportunity there to also enhance those services. So I think it goes back to I think, patient centricity, I think that that mindset and that culture goes, it has to go through the entire organization, because the organization is is an organism. That's kind of how I look at it. If one part doesn't work, the other part doesn't work. And then the other part doesn't work. And so when it gets to the field folks or those that are liaising directly with those patients, they can't do their job because they don't have the internal infrastructure to support them to do that work. So I think it's also a mindset shift too. And I'm not sure if that totally answered your question, or Shawn. So if you go back to the original question, I'm fine with that. But yeah, I think if you have to socialize those types of experiences to the entire Organization whether you have direct touch points or not, but you have to start probably where you are having the most direct touch points, because that's where you're going to get the most granular feedback. And then you can start kind of backing into the other types of departments that have huge influence on how that experience is rolled out.

Darshan

And we're, as you know, we're well past time. But I'm going to ask this question anyways, before we, we kind of let this issue, go to bed. We're going to rest whatever. They say a camel is a horse designed by committee. So if that's true, at what point Have you got too many stakeholders?

Erica

It's, it's a, it's a valid question. And I don't know that I have an exact answer for that. I think you know, it, I really don't know that I have a direct answer for that. I think you you kind of feel it as you go. And, you know, probably in my experience, and this happens a lot. You know, you've got a lot of people that you pull to the table. But then as you start to kind of work through it, you realize certain people are like, I don't know that my time is best suited here. Like, I don't know that you really need me in this part of, of the work that you're doing. And so I think sometimes it just kind of organically works itself out or summer, you know, you got to pull those subject matter experts in when the timing is right, and you don't always get it right the first time. We have lots of meetings where, you know, we've got a lot of people in the room. And that's like, are they really needed? Probably not, are you're even one of those people where you're like, why am I here? Maybe I don't need to be here. So I think it's, it's the nature of the beast that you're going to sometimes pull too many or not enough. And you start to learn that you have to actually seek out other wisdom and advice within the organization.

Darshan

That's a great, great sort of place to end it. So as you know, I'm going to ask you, what, four questions. The first question is, really, how can people find you, which is, as posted on the screen? brummett [email protected] And they can also find you on LinkedIn. Is that fair?

Erica

Yeah, absolutely.

Darshan

Excellent. My next question based on what we discussed, what would you like to ask the audience?

Erica

I would like to ask the audience what, what do they expect from their experience with with pharma? You know, I know trust is a huge issue with with, with patients, caregivers, and pharmaceutical companies. What would help make them feel like you know, pharma isn't necessarily the big bad, Wolf, but that we really are, we are really trying to make positive change within individuals that are living with certain conditions. So but how do we build trust? How do we do that better?

Darshan

I love that question. And I actually interviewed trust experts on the live stream all the time. So stay tuned, maybe we'll get a chance to ask that question. A little bit. The last time I actually asked this question, one of the experts, world renowned. Ask the question, trust in what there's so many issues that pharma has, when we started the question of where do you why you should trust me, I did a paper on trust. And one of the things that was very, very interesting to me, was the idea that if there's distrust, adding, doing more trustworthy things don't solve the problem, which was extremely enlightening for me, because I thought it was well, you don't trust me? Well, here 50 reasons to trust me. That's not how it works, you've got to first go back and address that distrust first. And until you do that, the rest of it doesn't work. Which was very, very enlightening for me. And we can have a whole offline discussion about this as well. But But I think, I think that for me as a payer, so I just literally in the last day, got diagnosed with diabetes, I'm kind of going, Oh, this is gonna be fun. But the, the experience that I had out of this is a lot of the groups that are involved are very, very excited about having programs in place. The problem is that the programs don't communicate. So you're making 50 phone calls to figure out what's out there. And they're all trying to be helpful without a doubt. Yeah. But if the, it would be so much easier for the patient. To go, here's a list of resources. You call this one place and then We'll pull from all the different places, the closest thing to that is, is something like good RX. But even that isn't a total solution. Because they aren't trying to address they're trying to sell you something else as well, which I don't have a problem with inherently, I just wish that there was one complete resource. So that would be and that I think that would help address like, for example, if I'm trying to find insulin, or I'm trying to find my foreman, is there a place I can go to and go? Which is the right insulin that by that my that my insurance would cover? And you think holiday insurance would be helpful? Yeah, but but they basically didn't know. And they're like, we'll get back to two or three days? Well, that's not very helpful.

Erica

No, no, no, I mean, it doesn't make for a seamless experience at all. And this is actually really interesting. Um, but again, I think it goes to the, to the point two, so you're almost taking it a step further back, right? Because you're trying to figure out what is even the best type of insulin for me, we're really looking at even the clinical questions that patients have about the treatments they're getting, and then you've got kind of my purview, which is, once the clinical conviction is determined, so doctor prescriber says this is absolutely the right treatment for you. My lane is how do we get that to you as easily as possible, so that you know everything out there that we offer, in a nice a synced way. And that, you know, we can make that process of obtaining it as seamless as possible. So it's almost like these two steps. And where I sit and patient support, we can't, I can't start talking about it. I can't talk about our products until that clinical conviction is made. So other parts in the organization can

Darshan

just I think, is fascinating. Because, from my perspective, I'm going all my doctor, my doctor knows I'm a pharmacist, so he goes, look, I want you to be on his long acting insulin. Like I don't really care which one, pick one as whatever's cheapest for you. And so I know that I just need to pick one and go from there because I'm gonna have to titrate that's great. But until that happens, I think that resources and maybe it's it has to be the insurance company that jumps in the third party of some kind, maybe it's the pharmacy. Everyone's kind of like not my problem right now. And that's that that is a little bit of a of a tough nut to crack. Not to say that I won't figure it out everyone does. But it's it's more complicated. For example, another easy thing would be having a website on how do you get a pinprick? And and get your blood sugar's Yes, I know how to do it. I've seen it done a million times at the pharmacy, but I've never done one. So yep, having a here are all the 50 questions you're gonna have to answer the first day. Yeah, be wonderful.

Erica

No, that's, that's great. I think that gets into a great topic to like even that conversation guide, you know, lots of organizations, I know, we have one to help patients talk through and be prepared for those appointments. Like what types of questions Do they want to ask? But you said something, I think is really, really important. And I think our healthcare system is kind of set up in such a way that it does make it this almost this assembly line, like passing of the baton. And so you're right, everybody is so everybody is so focused in on their lanes, and in some ways have to be only focused in on their lanes, that it's almost like, well, when you get to me, then we'll we'll address our part of it. But there's really a fragmentation that exists. And you're a pharmacist or Sean says, think about, you know, I think about someone who's living with a serious mental illness, you know, somebody that may not have resources as support around them, how hard is it for someone to navigate that whole process, and even just find the resources that are even out there. So there's a lot of work to be done. There's no doubt about that. It's, it's not ideal by any means.

Darshan

And let's be honest, in my case, it's diabetes is one of the it's one of the biggest diseases out there. So there's tons of data if I just really start looking, I'm just trying to avoid looking. What happens if it's a rare disease state, there's nothing there. So that's a great sort of discussion so we can have that discussion at some other point. Second question. Well, third, really, what is something you've learned in the last month that I think the guests that you think the guests might be surprised to hear about?

Erica

So I was watching a show I'm not sure if you've heard of it or not, but it's called alone, and they literally it's kind of like a naked interview. frade type show, but they basically take somebody and they drop them in the middle of like, the worst conditions in Vancouver. And they're completely alone. And they have to build their shelter, and they have to find food and basically survive. And it's really they just go, there's 10 people, they get dropped, and then it just basically whoever else out survives all the rest wins. So one of the things I was like, while they're, you know, how do you make fire like these people, you know, they, they can use one of those little flame sticks, but I was like, that's kind of cheating. So I got a bow drill, I got a bow drill, which is basically a stick mechanism that, you know, creates friction to build a fire. And I successfully was able to get a fire started with a bow drill. So my next so my next evolution with this is that I got to build my own bow drill. So I bought a bow drill, that's kind of cheating. But it's still hard, it's still really, really hard to start a fire with friction. But if I could create, like, if I can actually build my own bow drill from like wood outside, then I would be like I can, I can seriously make fire.

Darshan

The best. Awesome, that is really, really cool. I've always wondered, like, I've wondered, and I've seen a weird part of this, I'll mention it was that a similar corollary to that is, well, I wonder if you could do the same thing. But instead of putting them out into the jungle, I wonder if you can just put them on West Philadelphia. And what would actually happen.

Erica

I just stopped out though. And what's really interesting with alone is they look at the different regions. So not everybody gets dumped in the same area, but some might be really really far from a water source. But yet they have a flatland and build a shelter. But then somebody else might be on a 90 degree angles they're building a shelter just stinks but they can walk right down the hill and they can get to a stream so I was thinking that would be a massive social experiment to be able to do it like a major city and like a certain aspect of a city and be like survive out here. As long as you can

Darshan

show I can't remember the name of the show, but it was about this billionaire real billionaire who was who was taken from his house in Florida I guess and put in the middle of rural Pennsylvania and he had to figure out in 90 days how to go from literally having $100 and a car to a million dollars and he got pretty close he got to like 750 yard so that was amazing to me. So same concept, but different iterations um, what is something in the last week that's made you happy?

Erica

So I think we were talking a little bit about this but I went on vacation and it was awesome in fact my sister and my nephew also came with us for the first time and I have two kids myself so it was the most exciting thing to them to know that their cousin was going to be along for the ride because you know for them the more the merrier. It was like having their best friend tag along so it was a great vacation. As you know they're they never last long enough but I could I could seriously live out on the beach. If we're going back to the alone concept if they could just don't me on a beach with like plenty of crabs and like those little limpid, like things for me to eat. I would I wonder if I could live pretty, pretty long out there.

Darshan

I love the idea of it where you go, Wait, so the ideas I have to do better. I'm just going to stick with this level. I'm just going to eat the crabs and live here. They're like, that's not the point of the show. No, I'm

Erica

gonna be a very boring watch. Okay, this they got to get this girl off the camera.

Darshan

This was a lot of fun. Erica, I can't wait to have you on again. Would you be interested in coming back?

Erica

Absolutely. I always love our discussions.

Darshan

Thank you and everyone, just for people who didn't catch it the first time. You can reach her at brummett [email protected] and or find on LinkedIn.

Erica

This is the DarshanTalks podcast, regulatory guy, irregular podcast with hosts Dr. Shaun Kulkarni. You can find the show on twitter at DarshanTalks or the show's website at DarshanTalks.com

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