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Diversity in the Biosciences – An Interview With Tia Lyles-Williams, MRSc

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How can bioscience companies foster diversity within their industry? Join Darshan Kulkarni as he talks with entrepreneur Tia Lyles-Williams about the value of diversity within the life sciences. Plus, we’ll talk about the barriers to diversity in the life science industry, and how these barriers make it difficult for people of color and those within the LGBT community to break into the field.

Narrator: This is the DarshanTalks Podcast. Regulatory guy, irregular Podcast, with host Darshan Kulkarni. You can find the show on Twitter @darshantalks or the show's website at darshantalks.com.

Darshan: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of DarshanTalks. We have Tia Lyles-Williams, who is an entrepreneur extraordinaire. And, I'm really excited to have her, because we're going to have some really interesting conversations.

We discussed a few different topics, and we started off with, what should we talk about... The rise of companies in the Philadelphia area, and the change in biotech.

We think that's a really interesting topic to talk about. But then we started talking a little bit about queer communities, and we started talking about the importance of representation. We started talking about diversity.

And Tia and I land up talking a little bit about what all of this means, and how do you get people to have the right conversations and to show what's possible. Tia was great, she was open to having these conversations. So Tia, before we launch in, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Tia: All right. So Tia Lyles-Williams, Founder and CEO of LucasPye BIO, as well as our sister company called HelaPlex. And then, I have an overarching financial holding company called Goffman Bogart. I say that all in one. So when you see that stuff in my LinkedIn profile, you don't think I started a whole bunch of companies. They're all related.

Born in Gary, Indiana raised in Houston, Texas for a majority of my life. By the time I did high school, we had moved to Atlanta, Georgia, specifically the suburb, Marietta. I graduated from Wheeler High School. And then, from there, it didn't take too long, I was on my way to Howard, right after I graduated, that following August. Did my four year degree in Biology at Howard University. At the same time, I had an internship with the Howard University Cancer Center.

I was always doing something. I also did some type of a Spring break. I did something where it was like a med... What do you call it?... doing the rounds with the medical students, so I got to solve surgeries, whole lot of surgeries.

And then also I had an internship at NIH and at Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, out in Silver Spring in the naval base, so I've been around a little bit.And then I took my first corporate job outside of a lab setting of those at Human Genome Sciences in Rockville, Maryland. That is now called GSK. I got sick, took a year off. When I got better...

When I took the year off, I moved to Atlanta to stay with my parents for a year. It was a year on the nose. I had been living out of my parents' house all those years. it was very difficult in my, what was it, at mid twenties, I think at like 24, 25 to be going to live with my parents.

A year on the nose. Once the doctor gave me the green light, I followed my friends to the LA area and I was out there for around seven to eight years. And I ended up working for Amgen, Baxter.

And Avid Bioservices. That was my first CDMO. And then from there, I took a job in New Hampshire for a year. We'll get to that topic, as we talk about diversity and laws of biotech and pharma. And then from there, I took my last job as an employee or contractor with Jazz Pharmaceuticals, prior to starting LucasPye BIO.

That's where we at nearly, I think it's 20 years this year, I've been in this game from benchtop to also recruiting patients for clinical trials, developing drug processes for the big manufacturing facilities and actually performing them and leading the team.

And then also being a gatekeeper on the other side, as a customer with Jazz Pharmaceuticals. To decide which CDMO we wanted to work with and why. So I've seen all factors in both sides that led me to where I'm at,today.

Darshan: So, let's ask the question that you sort of hinted at, when you're deciding which CDMO to work with at Jazz Pharmaceuticals. And again, we're not making any representation for Jazz- [crosstalk 00:04:05].

Tia: No, it'd be any of them.

Darshan: Right. What did you look for and was diversity one of the factors you considered in the type of company you're going to bring in?

Tia: Hell no. You know, to be honest with you. And I don't even think it's to be mean or to be an asshole in this situation. I think it's because when you're working with your peers in the environment and you notice we get even, no matter what job you're doing, you just stuck, in your zone and the work.

And you looking at the quality of the work that's been done. So when I wasn't working with Jazz, my thing was looking at, who has the scientific capabilities on paper, and when we speak to them, who is the most open and up front about their quality record and their regulatory record. And at that time, regardless of what happened, it was one that stuck out. And my peers at JP went against them. And it wasn't nothing because they didn't like them.

It was more so because of comfortability. And so the most jacked up partner that they already worked with had already, had all these delays for another product that they had, that's who they chose to go with, with the next product they were developing in their pipeline.

And that opened my eyes, wide. I was like, are you serious? You can't get any of your things on time. They've already proven they don't know what quality even means. And regulatory, let's not even talk about it because they allow you, as the customer, to do things against regulatory. And then I figured out that most CDMO's take their instruction as far as our guide on regulatory,from their customers.

So then that already is going to Jack things up even further, because now you've got two entities that are not familiar with the regulatory process. And so now you're doing things against, that can hurt you with your IND or BLA filing. And so that for me was eye opening. So diversity, no, most of the times, you're not going to see no diversity, even in California, right. At Avid Bioservices where I used to work. There was some diversity to a certain extent, but definitely not at the director or C-suite level.

Darshan: So, I mean that raises so many questions and it... the first thing I'm thinking about, and I'll also throw a few of them because I just thought they were interesting. One of the most interesting things you've said is that, people choose people that they're comfortable with. And for me, that's really interesting because if you're talking about diversity and you're saying that, that brings value because we're saying different viewpoints change how you look at things, that's been the mantra of diversity, if you will.

How do you combat the problem of, you know what? I have the scientific expertise, but I don't look like you, or I don't see the world in your way. Does that automatically make you not? How should I put this? Not the same as you. And that the thing that makes me powerful is also the thing that makes me a problem, if that can be phrased that way.

Tia: Yeah. Go ahead.

Darshan: So what is your take? So if, as you grow your company, how do you fight that challenge, if you will?

Tia: Well, we definitely work as a team and as a team of 13 of us, including two business development consultants, but then outside of that is my network of partners. And to be honest, none of my network partners look like the traditional bio team either. Celltheon is owned by women who are of Indian descent. It is actually a family owned business between mother, daughter. And I think, I haven't figured it out. I don't know if that's her son or her brother or whatever the case may be.

So it's a family owned business for a cell line development company. And then you have Jefferson Institute for bio-processing that is in Philadelphia, and it got everybody, it got blacks, it got Indians, they got whites, it got everything right. I think what helps us stand out is that ability to make them seem that they have control over the project, which they do, right?

A lot of my CDMO peers, they kind of, hey, this is what we can do and this is how this all works. And then if you don't like it, we don't care. And if you try to have any input, we're going to charge you an extra million dollars just for saying something, because you're getting on our nerves.

And so that's how a lot of my peers work. And that's why customers go with who they're comfortable with, because they feel like, okay, we dealt with them before we can actually understand what they're saying. We don't have to come off as, let them know that we don't know what we're doing. Right.

Whereas with us as LucasPye BIO, we come to you, it's kind of like a family setting. We're asking you questions, you ask us questions, we answer it. We're providing input and actively asking for your input along the way, saying, okay, this is what we're proposing to do.

Do you agree with it or not? And if not, what is your counter proposal? Right. So that, I think is more doing and your actions that will help you stand out, despite the circumstances of you not looking like whoever they're used to working with. Right.

I don't think, nobody's going to have an opportunity, especially in our industry to even have a understanding of what that feels like until you give us a shot. But I also know that, there's not going to be many people brave enough to give us a shot. The first go around, right?

Darshan: Right.

Tia: So it's going to be very, very important for those first set of customers that we not only get the job done, but what we have built in our platform is a circulation or a process of feedback concerning our customer service. And then using that as part of our proposal to the next customer say, we don't have to give the customer's name, but this is what that person said about us.

And then if they want to know, do a cross reference straight. Yeah. We'll offer that information upon the, get permission from the previous client. So that they can speak and give them an honest answer of how we work. Now, most of my CDMO partners, they're not going to do that. They scared, they know they ain't doing everything the right way. So they wouldn't dare allow you to speak to one of their other customers. And that's because of their track record is already jacked up.

And unfortunately in biotech with CDMO's, on the customer side. Everyone knows who to go to for what, [crosstalk 00:10:16] right.

Darshan: Right.

Tia: We know we can go over here for pre-clinical. We know we can go over here for phase one. We know we can go over here your phase two. We know we can go over here for phase three and then last minute, if it does not work out with any of that, as far as your expectation, you know, you can go over here just for commercial. And you're comfortable with paying that extra money to transfer it, because you know that when you go with them commercially, you're not going to have all these hiccups coming back from the global regulatory community once your product is already in the market.

Darshan: So you talk about how you're open and you are, you make this information available, you talked about some of your partners and you talked about for lack of a better term, visible diversity. [crosstalk 00:10:58].

Tia: Exactly.

Darshan: And what I mean by that is looking like you're Indian or you're black or anything else. What happens about diversity in an expression, whether it's gender queer expression, whether it is generally queer expression, have you seen that in the C-suite or have you seen that in the type of engagements and the type of opportunities that are being offered to individuals and or companies who are trying to get a foot in the marketplace of ideas, if you will?

Tia: I would have to say in biotech, no, but I have one of my best friends, used to formally work for Toyota, in their quality department. And it was a few years back. And so they actually had them retrained on gender identity and pronouns because they had an employee that transitioned from male to female. And I thought that was awesome.

Right? They were doing it. She thought it was awesome. And the company was a 12 year old at that time, for that particular person at that location in Texas was zero tolerance on anything against that person. They made that very, very clear and they made them train. It was one on one day training or email. It was like a week long training. And that person wasn't even back yet. They did all this in preparation for that person to come back as their new selves.

So I found that very interesting. I found that to be a plus and biotech. When you see, if there is somebody queer, first of all, you probably don't know it because they keep it to themselves. And second of all, it's definitely not going to be anyone that's transgender, if that makes any sense.

Most of the time and an example I'm getting ready to give. And there's a white male that looks like a straight white male. You will have no idea that he was a part of the queer community, unless you had an opportunity to meet his partner, which I doubt they will bring to any type of company function. And that's the way it goes. And you definitely not going to see a woman like myself, a masculine presenting woman dressed like me in that seat.

Two stories. So I'll go with the first one, with the guy, it was a story at, we was at biotech, 2018, the BIO International Convention in Boston. Totally diverse panel, nothing I've ever seen before.

So you had a white lady, you had an Indian man. You had a white man. You had an Asian man. I think that was it. And still they'd known everybody by celebrating this. And so then I stood up and I asked a question, I said, "This is all great. And I'm glad y'all implementing these things." I said, "but what are you going to do to get more people that look like you up here and some of us out here in this audience to the C-suite?"

And so one guy, Asian guy took it as I was just only referring to the black community. And he had the nerve to say, "Well, not many black people live where we live. So there's no point of doing any training or education or any type of disseminate, any information to welcome those types of people." This is what he said at the bio conference.

Right. And I thought that either the gay queer guy would stand up or the white or the Asian lady, nobody said anything. They all looked at me and stared into space. Yeah I mean, why? They're not around. I was like, well, don't you think that in order to have somebody come there, that you need to make sure that everybody's on one accord and make sure that when that person... Let's say you do find somebody that's black in the [inaudible 00:14:19] now we're talking about black.

Don't you want them to feel comfortable when they come to your company? Yeah. I mean, I don't have to worry about that. It's not many people that live where our company is at , that's African-American, that's black and just left it and mind you at this time leading into my second story, I am an employee at Lonza, New Hampshire and I can't give too many details, because we got some legal things going on for that matter.

But what I will say was, at least they tried to play the game during the interview process. When I got there, when I actually moved from LA to New Hampshire of all places, things changed very, very rapidly. So there was, and I was posted a manager position. They demoted me right away to supervisor. And even that was hell, they didn't speak to me directly.

They assumed that the white person on the floor was in charge. Instead of me being in charge, it was a whole mess. And so what I say to say is that, they did exactly what the people at bio, said that they weren't going to do. Nobody lives here. We don't have to worry about that. But the kicker is, in New Hampshire, even though not a lot of people live there, they drive them from Boston or Massachusetts or Connecticut or whatever they've living at.

None of them were in leadership positions. They were all in sanitary, janitorial, or working down in the warehouse. And so to see me in my position where I was at, and I was just literally accidentally did a lateral move from the ship to their pool. It still was a problem for me to be there. Not just because I was black, but also I was masculine presenting. Mind you, when I did my interview, I was in a full suit, three piece.

So I wasn't giving you no indication that I was something that I was not. And then when it came to meetings, I received feedback. Folks didn't want to shake my hand and left me hanging, or the other feedback that I got when it came to time for the review. Was that I wasn't, I did not look and present myself accordingly to be at certain meetings. [crosstalk 00:16:16]

Darshan: Repeat that last sentence for me, you did.

Tia: I did not present myself accordingly to be at certain meetings, I need to [crosstalk 00:16:26].

Darshan: How?

Tia: Understand and be aware of the political climate in which these meetings are in.

Darshan: Interesting.

Tia: And it's because of the meetings that I was at, was in C-suite. They didn't want to pay me or give me the title, but they asking and inviting me to these meetings and use me and my platform, my ideas to build one of their facilities that they're building today.

But because I didn't meet their standards, I wasn't aware of my political climate in which I said, then there was nothing they could do for me and they purposely marked my performance review as such.

Darshan: Interesting. So, let me ask you this question. Was that type of environment, the reason you said, you know what, I'm going to start my own company? [crosstalk 00:17:15]

Tia: That was partially, but other one, the main one was, I got to get the fuck up out of here. You know what I mean? Like if I can't be myself and I can't be comfortable and one of the things with being in New Hampshire at that workplace, I can't really speak bad on the state of New Hampshire, but being at Lonza, at workplaces and you make it, you're being very, very overt that you don't like me for XYZ reason. You're stating it. And you're doing it in your actions.

So that doesn't make me comfortable or wanting to stay there. Right. And then the other reason was, once I went to the contract position at Jazz and all those contract positions. There were things that happened that let me know that, okay, I've hit a ceiling. Right. I got to see your manager title.

I got part of the pay, but this is probably as far as I'm going to go, because one, I'm overqualified with a master's in regulatory science, bachelor's in biology and then a business degree, master's in business. Right?

And then two, you don't want to see my black face sitting there. I make people uncomfortable simply by speaking the same jargon that we speak at work every day, or I correct you in what you're assuming or what you're doing because of my education and more important. My expertise, my experience. It's not that I just got this piece of paper. That say, hey I got a master's in regulatory.

I only want that to confirm what I already knew. This was 20 years in the game.

Darshan: Right.Right.

Tia: Right? Of going through regulatory audits with FDA, Europe, Japan, leading some of those audits on the manufacturing for all this stuff.

And so then, because I say something, that's inline, with what we're doing, you get mad. You want to kick me out the meeting and oh, by the way, you don't meet company standards for this role to be permanent. So we decided to go with somebody else, but I've already done the role for a year.

Darshan: Right. Right.

Tia: Right. So all these things I kept saying, and then also with our peers, right, just to be transparent,foreal, you don't see a lot of masculine presenting women in these types of positions, even as a senior manager. Right. Most of them and don't get mad. I'm just being straight up. Most of them are doing jobs as far as a athlete, actor, or hell even a bouncer at a club or Uber driver, something of that, in that gig territory.

Right. You may see some lawyers, some, and you may see some doctors, but not many. Right? And so this is a whole different territory to also let people who are kids, who are fortunate enough to be themselves from, from the beginning. To say, hey, okay, I don't have to do all these things. Here's a person right here. [crosstalk 00:19:51].

Darshan: Yeah.

Tia: Then I only started a company. She started a biotech company. She's bad ass. She knows her shit. And she humble. I'm not going to ever come to you on some hoity-toity, unless I'm in a situation where I got to do it, which this evening will be one of those situations with one of the meetings that I got. Right. But that's the get the job done. But other than that, with interviews, stuff like this, I'm going to always be myself. I may have on a hat. I may not. I may have on a suit. I may not. Anyway you look at it, I'm gone cut and dry. I'm going to always be 10.

And so that needs to be expressed so they can see, okay, I'm not limited into what I can do. Right. Even if somebody was seeing somebody, that transgender employee that I talked about at Toyota. If I knew who the person was personally, that would be somebody that you want to see. You know what I mean, upfront and close doing their thing, in these types of jobs and letting them know, this is not a limitation.

You can be who you are, as you are and do what you want and what your passion is to make a living for yourself and your partner and your family. And it's super important, but biotech is a long way from that. Right? So certain things that you just going to have to do to make yourself feel comfortable, regardless of the environment.

Right? And so to your point, yes. That's one of the reasons why I went on ahead and started my company, because I already figured out very quickly that I'm not going to get any higher because of this.

Darshan: So let me ask you this question. I mean, talking to you, it seems you are so comfortable in your skin. And for me, personally, getting comfortable in my skin in general has always been a developing process, shall we say? And every time I felt like I got comfortable, I felt like my skin had to change all over again. And I had to sort of revaluate myself. How long did it take you to become comfortable enough to go? This is who I am. [crosstalk 00:21:48]

Tia: Look, I had a little advantage in that when I, when I got to the point where I was ready to be out and myself, I actually did not come out until I was 30 years old. So not that long ago, but even in that process of, again, to that, I went to see a therapist. And talked about it and got comfortable with it. And then the other thing that I had to my advantage was that, the whole time I've been working in biotech.

So nobody, if they did suspect something, they didn't tell me to my face. Right. And then the whole time, because I was not out with it, I was able to get to a certain point, when I got to, once I did come out, then it was like, okay, that's it. Exactly what you thought what happened, happened? Right.

So, as I say, I kind of cheated a little bit because I didn't come out until I was way older. And I had the help of a therapist. And then I had my circle of friends were very supportive. They didn't care. Like I said, some people already suspected anyway, sometimes without us even knowing what we are or who we are at the time.

Darshan: So is your advice to young kids that, you need to accept the limitations. So the three pieces of advice that could possibly come from this, I'm trying to learn from you, what you recommend. And again, this is just Tia's opinion. There are probably a hundred different ways of doing this.

Tia: Yeah, probably a hundred different ones.

Darshan: But one piece of advice would be, do what Tia did, which is wait till you've played the game and then be who you are. And so that you aren't being shut out of opportunities, because it seems like you probably would be. That's one option. Option two, be who you are the whole time.

And the right opportunity will not be shut out because of who you are or more appropriately, the right opportunity will present itself because of who you are. So that's option two or option three, the world needs to change.

Tia: I'm going to say it's a mix of two and three, right. And the reason why I say that, because say the higher you are, this generation of kids, I'm totally open. And you see little boys at six, seven years old, with green, pink hair, they coming as little dude, whatever they want to do, right? So I say that to say, no, be who you are, out of the gate, but go and attain certain things.

Whether it's experience degree, certificates, some type of training, whatever it is that you want to do to become an expert in that field. So regardless of what's going on. I just gave the example that when we look for a CDMO, I'm not looking for diversity, I was looking for who can do the job, right? [crosstalk 00:24:24]

Darshan: Right.

Tia: And so I didn't want to be in more situations of people who are going to be looking at who can do the job, as we get down to these next generations and keep on going versus looking at you for, oh that person has pink hair.

That line, the guy is now a woman wearing a dress. They don't care about this stuff, so be who you are, but also do things to prepare yourself. There's no different than, I hate to say it, unfortunately that as African-American kids, we are taught, we were taught. When we was little and is still being taught that now that you have to go extra hard, so people can look beyond your skin color, because at the end of the day, you're not just what you are on paper, but in real life, you actually execute that.

That is the main thing, be who you are, but do what you need to do to get to the next level of what you consider your success. And make sure you do it so well that some people still don't look, but the majority of people are going to see right through that and help you get to the next level or help yourself get to the next level, by going after those things. That's my recommendation.

Darshan: So let, let's ask this question. How do we help them get there? How do we, as an industry help provide those opportunities? Because in the end, as I get older, personally, I find myself going, I want to help people. And I'll be honest, when I was younger, it was all about competition. And I want to get ahead. And as I get older, it's yeah, I've done what I need to do.

I'm not in that rat race in the same way anymore. And I, kind of want to help kids and young adults find themselves and be who they want to be, and yet not compromise the opportunities that they may have. Have you ever given it any thought to how do you give back? Like how do you sort of encourage individuals in the queer community to come out? And I don't mean to come out, but I mean, give them the opportunities that they deserve. [crosstalk 00:26:20]

Tia: To be themselves. [crosstalk 00:26:21].

Darshan: Yeah.

Tia: I would think that, even whether you're straight or queer right, to work with kids and to really have a direct impact, you have to seek out those opportunities. You have to find somebody in that, where they got some type of community program, or maybe they teach at a school or whatever, to seek out those opportunities and make yourself available and known.

And so, as I'm going through this process, before. LucasPye BIO is [inaudible 00:26:42] of my place I'm going to circle back to it. But before then I was always involved in community service. I was heavily involved with the Delta Sigma Theta Sorority in California.

I work with them a lot. I think I worked with them in three years in the row, mentoring kids during their STEM programs and just being like a big sister. So when I get a chance to do that, to come back around, once LucasPye BIO is a little bit more on the speed and I can step away from it.

I plan to do that, for HelaPlex, that other platform. HelaPlex is the first commercial co-working space for life science startups and virtual biotech companies. And is literally on steroids. So we give you a laptop, we're managing you, per global regulatory requirements. We're calibrating the standardizing equipment and doing a single authorized juice, codes for everybody to use everything facility. Right?

So on top of that, though, we do want to do some community service. We're already in conversation with our U City Science Center, to do some things with them, not just workforce development for young adults, but also mentoring the kids and show them different things they can do.

And so that's why I say, you have to seek out these opportunities yourself and just kind of make yourself available or make it a part of your mission, with the respective company or group, to say, I want to actively participate in this arena.

The other thing that you have to do. Is try to have some influence of what the school system or what the university system, not many commercial companies, at least not in biotech, partner with Academia in that way, they kind of take advantage of them and buy their assets for cheap, right?

Because they know better as far as what is really worth it and what they can get it for based on where it's at, at the commercialization process, but also impacting their curriculum. A lot of times, especially in biotech, I know most of my peers, as far as the big pharma, they do some things, but they're not really active.

They show up, they guest lecture and they out, and then we're trying to figure out, okay, why weren't we supposed to graduate? Why aren't they ready? Why can't you? You will work in a lab in academia.

Why can't you come on this lab at, for instance, Merck, GSK, or whoever, and do what you need to do. And so it's those leadership peer to peer mentorship programs that the commercial market needs to actually put that as a priority. So we can actually start training the next generation of the workforce.

At the rate that we're going even now, right? Baby boomers are retiring. Regulatory was already hurt. When I got into this industry, the only people that was with regulatory, any prior oldest, is my grandparents. And so now you got some of the baby boomers that's stuck around. And now that is my, I don't have any kids, but friends and their parents, that's grandparents, they leaving again. And so until we change this and get rid of this invisible line between academia versus commercial, we're going to continue to go into a circle.

We're going to continue to have situations like this with COVID-19, where it's taking longer to get things done, because academia was never prepared to be able to actively participate with the global regulatory system, actually put out a product to solve problems like these, right?

And then you have commercial on the other side that was so focused on what has the most patients available for clinical trial and what has the least options as far as standard of care on the market. And so now we here head to head and looking at each other, like you got it, you got it, you got it. You got and I got it.

Well, how are we going to do this? Well, and your president, who my sister just texted me a while ago, said that, he wants a treatment for COVID-19 by election day.

Darshan: Yeah. If I was a betting man, and this is sort of, no one asked me for my opinion, but I'm going to give it anyways.

Tia: Give it, please. Hell, they ain't asked me either, so shit.

Darshan: The chats of us having a COVID-19 treatment before election day, I would say is less than 5%. But what do I know? I've only been in the industry for 20 years. So I may be missing something.

Tia: No, you ain't missing nothing. That's why. Look, that's why we still got all these bioassays that are doing false positives and things like that. Until we sit down and do this the right way, until we sit down and make sure everybody stays home, regardless of what's going on, is going to continue to spread. And we're going to get further and further away from the mark of being able to produce a viable treatment, hopefully vaccination and cure type situation for COVID-19. So.

Darshan: I love that whatever we talk about now, the conversations always come back to COVID-19 though. It's- [crosstalk 00:31:19]

Tia: Always. And I love it because now people are like, oh Tia, this is what you've been doing for the last 20 years. Okay, well we know you got that inside. Can you let us know when you got a cure? I'm like first of all, I'm a CDMO. We don't do no research and development right now. We take people's stuff and get it to the clinic.

I was like, well, when I do get something, yeah, I'll let you know. But this shit is hilarious to me. And how everybody's so concerned and in biotech and everybody's an expert on COVID-19. I got into an arguement with this dude at the store, he's standing close to me, he's mad.

Because I'm basically working on my phone as I'm shopping during the day, for my family.

Darshan: Yeah.

Tia: And he's getting mad. He's like, "Well, this is six feet." I'm like, dude this is just three feet. This is not six feet. "You can't catch Covid that way." And he's just angry. He's just pissed off. But I say this to say that, now everybody's an expert on what COVID-19 is and how you can get infected. This is a mess.

Darshan: One of my favorite things was this comment. I think I saw on either Facebook or Twitter, but it kind of went, "I'm really impressed by the number of people who are constitutional scholars, who suddenly became public policy experts." Because, yeah, that seems about right.

Tia: Yeah.

Darshan: But I love it. Tia this was an incredible conversation. I would love to do more of these if you're open to it.

Tia: Yes.

Darshan: Thank you so much for being on.

Tia: All right. You have a good one.

Darshan: Oh, Tia meant to ask you, how can people reach you?

Tia: Oh, excuse me. I'm very active on LinkedIn. So that's the best way to reach me. Other than that, you may see me on Instagram or you can email me at [email protected] and somebody or me, will get back directly to you and answer your questions XYZ.

Darshan: And could you spell LucasPye bio, please?

Tia: L U C A S P Y E, separate word, bio.com.

Darshan: Awesome. Thank you again Tia.

Narrator: This is the DarshanTalks Podcast. Regulatory guy, irregular podcast, with host Darshan Kulkarni. You can find the show on Twitter @darshantalks or the show's website @darshantalks.com.

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