Darshan
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of DarshanTalks. I'm your host Darshan Kulkarni. It's my mission to help you trust the products you depend on. So as you know, I'm a pharmacist, I'm an attorney, and I advise companies with FDA regulated products. So if you think about drugs, wonder about devices are obsessed with pharmacy. This podcast view, I do have to emphasize this is not legal advice. It's not clinical advice. It's not marketing advice is just general overall educational discussions. I do these podcasts with a lot of fun, I find myself learning something new each time. I don't often get a chance to talk to Martin as I get today. But I learned something especially when I talked to get like my guests to that. So it'd be nice to know someone's listening. If you liked what you hear, please like, leave comments. Please subscribe. If you like what you're hearing, please share. And, and please reach out to my guests. If you think she might be able to help. If you want to find me, you can always reach me on DarshanTalks on Twitter, or just go to our website DarshanTalks calm. Our podcast today. Our podcast today is above leadership. Our podcast today is about commercialization. Our podcast today is about how do you bring? How do you lead a company towards the future in a time when it is with everything's changed. So if you are a leader, if you are trying to wade through the changes that are happening today, in terms of COVID in terms of working from home, in terms of been planning, you probably start caring about today's discussion. So our guest today is the CEO, I want to get this right CEO at PMI Media Group, because I know that they're very specific about how they want that phrase. So the CEO of CMI Media Group and and she is an incredible speaker. We've had her as a guest more than one on our top. So our guest today, Susan Dorfman, how are you Susan?
Susan
I'm good. How are you?
Darshan
Good to talk to you. By the way, I met Ron Sookie, Dr. Susan Dorfman, isn't
Susan
it? No, no. Yeah, you Susan, Susan is great. Mother, that was you know, this, that was culturally that had to happen. But, Susan,
Darshan
fair enough. Fair enough. So let's talk a little bit about your role. And we've been taught we've, we've had this discussion to different formats before, but we, one of the things you are talking about, in your role as CEO is, is sort of looking at the future. So talk to me a little bit about First of all, what do you think are the core requirements to be a good CEO?
Susan
Oh, gosh, if you ever get that answer, please let me know as well. I think if anyone says you know that they have that answer. They probably wouldn't necessarily be telling you. I don't know if it would be truthful, I think it would be more case specific. So I think first and foremost, there are there are things that I think make people good people and let's let's maybe just start with that. Being open, being honest, being receptive are important qualities, I think, to any role, to CEO in particular, that you know, I not judging myself, necessarily, I'd rather have my team do that, but from the CEOs that I've ever worked for. It's a balance of patience, with rigor, it's a balance of openness with direction. It's a balance of kindness, with authority, respect, force, for others, and kind of credibility and, and being able to show that an individual deserves and actually earns respect as well. So not demands that respect. Those are, in my opinion, really, really strong CEOs. They're smart, they're they are smart. And they are also wise and someone went at once asked me Do you know the difference between smart people and wise people? I'm gonna ask you the same. Do you know the difference between smart people and what's
Darshan
the riddle where you're like, what is the magic way you say that? This really smart people and wise people? I think, I think white people, smart people know the information. White people know when to ask for the information.
Susan
So that is so close to that answer. You are so wise to know that. I was growing kind of through my career. Someone had asked me that someone that that was a mentor to me, he asked me that and I said, Well, what is the difference? And the person told me, smart people use their brains to get things done. wise people rely on smart people. And I would say that for CEO one of the most important things is to be that wise person is not to feel like they are the only one that can steer the ship is to bring in really, really smart people who are also wise, and allow them to do their thing and build a community and have that community of smart and wise people trickle down all the way to the to the entire organization, because the only if you look at the CEO, as the only leader in the company, you'll likely find a CEO, who is you know, the only person in the company there is nobody else, they report to themselves, they are everything, it's an N of one, when you run a company, the larger it is, the more leaders you actually need to be able to diffuse things from the top down from the middle, down from the bottom up. So every person in some ways needs to be a leader.
Darshan
It's so interesting to say that but now I'm wondering about the C suite in general, when people who are as you are wiser, depending on people who are smart, smarter, nicer things subject matter expert.
Susan
Um, you know, there's also a sense of emotional intelligence that comes with that. So you know, subject matter experts can be really good at their job, they may not necessarily always be really good on the emotional intelligence side. So of course, as leaders that are working with them, or who they're working for kind of even counter parting with their there's an opportunity to build that emotional intelligence into that role. Because when you lead people, you need both. You need to have that that sense of every individual, because it's not just about the masses, it's about every individual, we're unique. Finding the uniqueness, some of the best people, developers that I've seen are really, really strong on the emotional intelligence side, and don't approach it in a cookie cutter, kind of, you know, here it is, for everyone, this is what everyone should know. It's really about finding the uniqueness of each individual that works for you. And that's why it's also important to have a direct report team that is manageable, because you do have to give back, you do have to invest in learning, you know, what the individual is, like, they have to learn what you're like, you know, what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are, help them develop, you know, some of those weaknesses, but also be okay with the fact that, you know, hey, some of us have weaknesses that may never turn into strengths. So how do they not become impediments? And actually serve us better? And how to our expectation shape, as
Darshan
well, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. That was, this is the perfect time to mention you mentioned this a few seconds ago. You're looking right now, for people for variety of roles.
Susan
Yes, we are hiring Absolutely. So if anyone out there is listening, and, you know, hey, if you want to make an impact, if you want to work in healthcare, you know, as healthcare communicators, we're doing really important work. we're educating people on providing them information, and hopefully getting them one step closer to living healthier and better lives. So media, analytics, data, whatever your interests are creative, talk to us, please.
Darshan
So so so let's talk a little bit about how you how you choose the people that that you're going to bring. And obviously, there are people who go, I just don't want to deal with people and working from home from home has been the greatest blessing I've had because I don't have to do that. And then there are people going, I really need to talk to people and everything in between. and and when you're trying to develop this, this vision for what the next five years of CMC, EMI Media Group looks like, how do you go, these are the types of people we want. These are the people whose emotional intelligence is the type we need right now. And this is what we're going to offer them to make sure that they feel like this is the right home for them.
Susan
Yeah, so um, first and foremost, I think you know, for anyone that feels that they're talking to people less in this environment, you can hear my voice is not in its best state. I think for the 18 plus months that I've been working remotely with the rest of my team. I have spoken more on zoom than I think I have in my entire life when I finish work at night and I you know, I turn off my computer, and I sit with my husband watching, I'm watching Netflix and he wants to talk. I just need I I am talked out so, um, you know, I think zoom has ultimately zoom all of the teams everything that people are using Skype to communicate with one another I, you know, I do feel like there's a reinvention of a norm, we're not going back to the past, nor should we want to, we need to strive for a better future. And, personally, I am a big champion of individualization of not having a persona, I'll call it of a type, but rather individualization in people who want to come in and make a difference in people who you know, who are okay to experiment, people who are not afraid to fail people who are, I would say, really important to me more of a cultural add, then the necessarily wanting to and you know, being comfortable and just being a cultural fit. I think the only requirement that I would say is really important to me are people who are good at heart and people who are genuinely nice. stinkers don't tend to last I think I said last time, they just until last time, the company, it's not who we want to be we're decent, good group of people, we support one another, we help one another. There are no layers in our organization, even if there are titles, I will go and staple things for people, if that's what they need me to do it, you know, there there there. We try not to have that type of hierarchy. anyone at any level, is is is part of the family. We just we just don't think like that. So that's that's the only thing if you're a good person with a good heart, you want to do the right thing you care about people. You know, there's clearly a mission that we believe in. So we are a mission driven agency. That's important to us. But if you feel like you can create change if you're not afraid to learn if you're not afraid to be agile, because we believe in charting out new courses that have never been done. And you know what, with that, they're learnings. They're not failures, they're learnings or pivots along the way. So if you're okay with that, if you're okay with pivoting if you're okay with, with with thinking out of the box, if if you're okay with you know, being doers, thinkers, there's so many different so many different places within CMI Media Group and compass that people can can start and ultimately elevated.
Darshan
So so you talk about pivoting, I have a just a leadership question to ask you about this, which is, when should you not pivot? And the reason I asked that question is, I've been several situations where we're like, well, we're responding to the information coming in. And that's great. Except sometimes of myself, and sometimes with my marketing team, a marketing marketing team comes back to me and goes, can you stop pivoting? Like we're trying to go after a goal? We keep pivoting? So how do you advise your team? You know, stay the course right now?
Susan
Yep. So I think it's key performance indicators, I'll call it that, you know, if you have a pathway that you're trying to get to, if you have a goal that you're trying to reach, if you don't have measurables during each phase, and kind of seeing you know, where you're headed. pivots can be small pivots can also be what you know, pharma is famous for saying, fail fast, don't fail fast, you don't fail fast, right? If you're failing fast, you're failing yourself, and you're failing your organization that is to me one of the like, I just can't get, I can't get that concept. It's learn, assess, or I should say, assess, learn, and adjust if you need to do those small pivots. But genuinely, if you if you define a pathway and that pathway, here's where we are. Now, here's where we want to go. You have kind of moments of truth where you pause and you say, Hey, how are we doing? You know, did we achieve because we had some measurables will be accomplished one kind of thinking, which is my chairman's thinking that I loved and kind of adapted in my own my own style. How do we know that we've gotten there and where are we and if we can measure it, Those things, then the marketing teams that tell you that or, you know, say that they're right, because, you know, we're, we didn't get to a place that we wanted to go where our KPIs right? Did we learn something from it? Like shifting completely is or shifting, I would say is very different from walking away. And I think maybe some of the stuff that you are, you're relaying to me is people are saying like, why are we walking away from this meaning pivoting and let's drop what we're doing here. When I say pivoting. That's not at all. But I mean, the agility is to head down a path. And to know that, while to rights don't make a wrong or to rights don't make a left to left to make a right. So there you go. I'm very directionally challenged, that every single day pivoted yesterday leaving, leaving New York leaving a pack with the help of a police officer because I got incredibly lost, but I pivot all the time, when it comes to my driving skills, I'm still headed down a path, I'm still ahead at home, I'm not going to a different destination, because I didn't get there. So pivoting is being able to decide on your clear path and continue to go there. But also know that if it's if the path itself was the wrong path, there comes a time where you need to say, long path, we didn't do necessarily, you know, we didn't achieve what we thought we would achieve. And rather than continuing to invest in that path, walk away. So there are times and moments where that is a requirement.
Darshan
So it's interesting, you say that I love the idea of you saying don't fail fast. Because I find that to be such an interesting concept. Obviously, I come at it from a regulatory compliance perspective. But the the big thing and legal perspective, the big thing that always strikes me is tech is all about fail fast. And pharma thinks that they need to be more like tech. I mean, let's be honest, from a valuation standpoint, technology companies came out of nowhere, and it clips pharma companies. So I can see the beauty of saying fail fast, but you're saying, No, no, no, there's a reason we're different. But have you dealt with health tech companies versus pharma companies? And what is their differences of thought process? And how does the media group and company
Susan
so for anyone who knows my background, I do not come from the media world. So I came to CMI at one point being a client other point being a partner, but I come from the tech and data world. So it's interesting that you asked that. And when we first kind of came to the realization of, you know, this is our brand, this is who we are in defining what that is. It'll 10, almost 11 years ago, we kind of promoted the concept of agile marketing, no one ever talked about that. And the reason we did that was coming from the tech world, agile development. That is not a fail fast environment that is a you know, you you have it, you have a pathway that you want to achieve. You have a roadmap, right? So your roadmap and the roadmap as you're building it out, does it continuous, continuous ability to deliver components of the technology as opposed to waiting, right? So it's a continuous process. It's an agile process. You you launch, you learn effects, and then you continue to go it's not a fail fast process. I don't know where the concept of fail fast. The first of all, you never fail, right? You learn if you're smart, you learn. If you're not smart, you fail. And failure is okay. Like failed, never touching that again. That's a bad way of thinking, right? That's the we've always done it this way. Because or we tried it once and it didn't work. That's the mentality that we need to stop. Like, we can't be thinking, especially in an agile world. So we shouldn't be thinking of the word fail. We should be thinking about, you know, a concept of learning and adjusting from what we did. So I think that's a really important really, really important piece for us to consider. In the tech world to, um, there is this concept of a roadmap. Right? On the marketing side, you know, do we have a roadmap, right? We don't we don't think about a roadmap. So you know, when you have a roadmap, then you can schedule certain, you know, certain releases, and then you can fit new components in there based on client ass, right, it has to fit into the roadmap. So I think there's a lot of learning that we can take from the technology side, we just need to interpret it in the right way. Darshan, I don't hear you.
Darshan
Sorry, I muted myself a doctor here. So as you can tell a individual neither one of us know, Carly Cooper says that you never fail, you've learned. So thank you finally. See, I do have to add, though, so so you're talking about building this roadmap, you're talking about going and focusing and finding the right goal, the KPIs, if you will, let's talk a little bit about using that information to build a vision. Now. Now, first of all, let's let's, let's talk about a group like CMI, and say my group and we are trying to take a company like that and take it to the next level, when do you start building the vision for the next year? And do you build it year by year? Or do you build a decade at a time.
Susan
Um, so we do have a five year plan, but as we know, technology and media shift dramatically, and then they're, you know, their cultural kind of cultural events, things that happen that you don't anticipate, we're living through one right now. So again, the concept of shifting the concept of pivoting the concept of chart, instead of piloting, I hate that word. So charting out new paths, and, and tweaking what you're doing is really, really important. So our five year plan has shifted, in some ways, there were things that probably two years ago that we anticipated, you know, going into, from a futuristic perspective that have been reprioritized doesn't mean that, you know, we're walking away from some things, but you know, prioritization changed, our client's needs have changed, anticipating what the market is going to need becomes incredibly important. But it's also you know, when you invest in the future, which is something that we always do, you have to see it, and project it, and you have to invest in it early. So that way, you're not coming to clients with concepts, you're coming to them with kind of, you know, proven, proven solutions, even chartering with them, some things together, as as you build for that future. So some of the things I would say, you know, 70, if you can get to 60 to 70%, of your future vision being realized, your God, right. Um, and I think that's, you know, that's an important thing from a leadership perspective, to also know and be an investor in, you know, as, as CEO, and of course, with with my Chairman, we're investors in a lot of things that the really smart and nice people that work with us. Come and share and, you know, come and tell us and we sit and we strategize and we plan for them. And every year we kind of assess where are we in this? How do we how do we pivot? Where do we pivot? What do we need to add? What are some of the learnings that we had, we're also huge believers and users of a concept called okrs. objectives and key results. So we live and die by that every year. And sometimes they're continuous, they're rolling, but it doesn't have to change every year. But the measurement does have to be continuous every year we assess them, especially as they you know, as they're part of our five year plan. And then we can prioritize, we can shift. Even throughout the year, we can reprioritize certain things, move them up certain things, move them down, in terms of their importance to the organization and the kinds of things that we and everyone else in the agency need to work towards. These are also things that are not part of the day to day job, right? These are things that we are trying to achieve as an add in an organization such as ours, which you know, for us is really important. Not always to be the first but to be the best at whatever it is that we do and certainly to think ahead and anticipate the needs of our industry of our clients of the patient. health care professionals that they serve, and be able to invest in some of those things early, assess them often and adjust.
Darshan
I'm gonna ask you a question because you said you're from the tech world and you're talking about vision planning you're talking about don't necessarily be the don't necessarily be the first to be the best and never acting on this question of choice as a CEO. would you would you rather model CMI Media Group on Apple, Google or Microsoft,
Susan
I probably take a little bit of each. And if we can create an acronym, app goo app kumaun. Maybe we'll call it that and come up with a whole new concept. I think that you know, each of them have done something really incredible. Some of them one I think was you know, they were not necessarily the first in the space, but they've refined and became certainly in some areas if not all the best in the space. So I think there's lots of learnings I think what I'd love for CMI Media Group is to be the best for the people that are part of our organization, part of our agency, the customers that we serve the partners that we work with, and at the end of the day, if we can improve one life, two lives 1000 lives, a million lives whatever that number is, if we can get them information quick enough to know that a treatment exists. If we can educate one physician if we can make impact like that, then you know what, I can go home I can stay home I don't have to go home I can walk out into that living room and you know and look at my husband I can look at my son both of whom are healthcare professionals. And I can say You know what?
Darshan
That's awesome so so we basically ran out of time but I'm gonna ask you are really make a comment because this is perfect for the next conversation we're going to have which is you talk about app goumi as you just put it, but one of the things at Google is facing right now is the challenge of having the appropriate cultural fit and and that's coming from inside where they're saying, Yes, we want you to be the best group out there we want you to feel fulfilled. And now the groups are are turning against the company and they're saying, we expect XYZ from you to support our diversity and inclusion goals. And the company is saying, Well, wait a second, that's not what we meant. We're doing what we can but that's not what we meant. So I don't need to comment right now but I want to tease it for the next time which is how does it's obviously a West Coast they tend to be a little bit more productive from a legal perspective with these they can say this California is known to be just sort of out there from a liberal perspective and but the goals themselves aren't necessarily bad so how do you as a CEO try to make sure that you meet those goals and welcome people which I think is really important to you at the same time balancing the need of the company itself and you don't have to answer right now but we can talk about it next time.
Susan
Yeah, you know, I'll throw something out there even for the right now, for anyone who has that question because it is a really important question. You know, we we firmly believe inside and that is part of part of a culture that I think came from the very inception of the company that we are family and you know, in any family good, bad or indifferent. You know, there there is and, and hopefully this is the good family there is this concept from within. So first and foremost, you know, when you care about people genuinely care about people, they will become part of the solution. So, two things have to happen as in any relationship, it's a give and take right when one gives and one takes that is never a good thing. And in the corporate world, if you have people that care about one another, from the top, or from the bottom up from the top down, and every which way there's a mutual respect and mutual benefit in in CMI Media Group from an agency person perspective, we do believe in the cultural add, we do believe in diversity and inclusion, we don't just say that we have an organization that lives and breathes it every day. And our people are part of the ER G's that come to us as leadership. You know, I serve as an executive sponsor of the LGBTQ er, g group. And you know, I'm with them, you know, we are doing things we have every executive leader is part of an ER g that we support, we talk about these things, we don't just talk about them, we bring them to life. So for any agency company that is out there, talk the talk and walk the walk. For any employee that is out there, please always know that it is a give and take, like in any relationship that you may have, with friends with partners, spouses, family members, there's a mutual respect and give and take. And when you stop thinking about taking and when you are truly about giving. That's when magic happens.
Darshan
Sorry, I know this was supposed to be our last question. But I, I can't not ask this question because you said it. You said that CMR Media Group is a family. Do you believe in the Michael Corleone way of running a family? which is I think this is afraid Oh, don't never go against the family? Um,
Susan
gosh, no. I love that movie. I do. I love that movie. Um, no, I I don't think so. I you know, I come from a very tight knit family. We're kooky. We're, you know, but we really love each other. So no, no, no. You would hope that you know, as a family, you're doing right by each other. And, you know, being able to see someone's perspective. From that sentence, I think, oh, gosh, I thought you brought me back to I actually seeing him touch touch. Not Not Not harsh. No, it everything is done with kindness. And you know, I have to say that that really, we have our chairman who's the founder of Stan woodland, is I can't say enough about him is the kindest, most generous human being there is. And like, I think you see that I think everyone wants to emulate that and be that and I think that's really who we are. So no, no, Michael Corleone, no Corleone family. Like, I don't even have to compare it to maybe shits Creek. I mean, they ended up like, where they're, they're like in that whole environment. If you watch throughout time, you kind of see that they're really good people there. And everyone kind of truly cares about one another. So yeah.
Darshan
So I you the I forget I forget,
Susan
guerra. I'm definitely not.
Darshan
I loved her. But anyways, as you know, I'm gonna ask you three questions. The first question, based on what we discussed, well, it's something you'd like to ask the audience?
Susan
Um, probably, what is your current biggest challenge right now? And what are what are you after 18 months? And now what seems like back to lockdown again? What are you facing? What are your, you know, internal kind of challenges? And what are you thinking about from a workforce perspective? I'm back in office for certain number of days, we are we are completely remote at this point. And that's kind of our new new way of working model. Does that help? Does that hurt? You know, we're always trying to balance what is right for, for our people, what is right out there. So we'd love to know, what everyone is thinking is in that respect.
Darshan
Um, I usually ask the question first so that other people can think about and response. I think my biggest thing personally, that I'm working through, is trying to get my word out more and do it in a more succinct way. And the one thing that keeps coming back to each time, and every time I'm hoping there's a different answer, but it's not is I need to have clear goals. So for me, that is my biggest challenge. My in terms of working from home, I think it's been a blessing However, I'm seeing more and more clients actually start Start thinking at, can we talk in person, which is happening a little bit more, I think you can build certain connections online. But I think there will need to be at least from a sales and marketing front page from a sales point, I guess, some level of contact that will need to happen. I think people are starved a little bit from a connection perspective. And we saw that over the course of the last three, four months. So I think that was really interesting. Even the introverts. I knew were going, Yeah, I need to talk to someone. So so so that became really interesting, because that would be my second question to you. What is something you've learned over the last month?
Susan
That no matter how much I think I know, there's always something new that causes me to pause things say, gosh, you really don't know. So that I think for me personally, that we all need to be continuous learners never think that we know everything that there is to know.
Darshan
Cool. Last question, what makes you happy in the last week?
Susan
Oh, my god yesterday. So talk about personal connection. I'm a huge, like, huge fanatic of Freddie Mercury and I went to the New Jersey pack, and I went to see a Freddie Mercury Queen concert. I'm still singing and I posted I did post on Facebook and also an Instagram. Some of the videos from there didn't realize that I was singing so loud, I'm Um, but yeah, I'm like, smell so so like, that made me super happy being around people I love and certainly being around that music. Totally made my my,
Darshan
probably my year. That's amazing. I love it. I do have to ask you the next time, the role of Facebook in communicating or the role of social media communicating internally, not a conversation I've had before. So I think that'd be a fun conversation. So So again, I do want to emphasize you can reach Susan on LinkedIn at Susan Dorfman. And, or you can go to CMI Media Group. And those are websites there and you can apply for jobs. The variety of what she's looking for. The core goal is to not be a thinker because thinkers don't last. And here's the bad news. If you're looking to fail fast. That's not what she's looking for. So don't feel bad. But but that would be the goal. And Susan, this was wonderful having you thank you so much.
Susan
This is the DarshanTalks podcast, regulatory guy, irregular podcast with host Darshan Kulkarni. You can find the show on twitter at DarshanTalks or the show's website at DarshanTalks.com