Darshan
Hey everyone, welcome to the DarshanTalks Podcast. I am your host Darshan Kulkarni. It's my mission to help you trust the products you depend on. So as you know, I'm a pharmacist, I'm an attorney, I advise companies with FDA regulated products. So if you have a question about drugs, you wonder about devices or ponder over pharmacy. This is a podcast for you. I do have to clarify, this is not legal advice. And our guest has confirmed that she does not speak for her employer. Otsuka. So turns out she's not the spokesperson. So please keep that in mind. Having said that, she is incredibly intelligent. And we're gonna be talking about a topic that I'm really, really passionate about. So we'll talk about that in a few different forms, which is, it's going to end up being a little bit about patient centricity, but it's going to be about a few different other issues as well. So stay tuned, because if you are doing clinical research, if you are doing marketing and advertising, all of these touch in, in some really deep ways to patient centricity, but I do these podcasts again, because they're a lot of fun. I find myself learning something new each time. And it'd be nice, no, someone's listening. So please like, subscribe, please leave a comment. And as our guest today would, would assert. If people think that they might love this, please share this podcast and live stream with people as well. If you want to reach me, you can reach me on DarshanTalks on Twitter, or just find me on my website DarshanTalks calm. Okay, let's talk about today's podcast. And this podcast is gonna be exciting, we're going to be talking about trying to decipher actually gonna line up talking about because we discussed this, but we don't actually know if we get to get there. So let's talk about our guests. And then maybe see if we get into the topic. Our guest is the Senior Director of patient support at suka, and the current president of marketing communications Corp for the HBA Mid Atlantic region. So she is a marketing guru extraordinaire, and connects that with patient engagement patients and trade centricity. So if you are clinical research, pharma, healthcare you probably want to be listening in on today's podcast, ladies and gentlemen, our guest for today. That's very priestly. That's right. How are you?
Desiree
Hi, I'm good. Thank you so much for having me on Darshan, and I can't everybody or anybody listening.
Darshan
I'm sure people are already listening. But thank you for coming on. So let's talk a little bit about this. So so your job is senior director Patient Support? What does that actually mean?
Desiree
Yeah, so if I think about all the different things that we do, especially to target I think Patient Support is probably different at each organization. So it's a good question. So it's, for me, it's really all the different patient engagement activities that happen across our portfolio. So we do have lots of different therapeutic areas that we plan, so mainly CNS and nephrology, rare disease, and then also digital therapeutics. So any of the patient engagement activities, certainly saw falls within that shop. And then also just, if you think about affordability, awareness, creating awareness for these programs that's within our shop as well. So a lot of different fun activities. And I think, with the consumerism of healthcare really being solidified during the pandemic, it's a more important area than ever.
Darshan
So I'm going to ask you a question, because you mentioned it, and I know everyone's doing this, but I've wondered about this for a while. What does digital therapeutics mean? Because I've heard that term bandied around, I've seen everything from the digital pill to more what does that mean about suka?
Desiree
Yeah, I think we're in the midst of defining this exam. It's true, because we do we have digital therapeutics. So to your point, we have a chip in the pill, we also have digital mock, we're going to have digital therapeutics and other ways where maybe it's an app or some sort of wraparound service for patients. And then we also have digital solutions, which are just ways that we support our patient population digitally. So I think we have to sort of define exactly what we're talking about, depending on the project, but we're trying to tackle all of those things, because digital engagement is here to stay.
Darshan
So you talk about tackling this and making it patient centric. What is the difference between direct to consumer engagement and patient centricity?
Desiree
Question? Yes, no. So to me direct to consumer that really falls within marketing and Patient Support. I think it's distinctly different. So when I think about what direct to consumer is doing is part of it is finding where those patients are and creating awareness that there's a product available to them. That's not really My remit within Patient Support, it's almost once the product or the therapeutic has been decided upon by their provider. At that point, that's where Patient Support really begins, I do think there's areas to potentially play within disease, state learning and education where we can create, you know, good things for our patients to understand exactly what it is about their disease state that they need to know, lifestyle modifications that might need to happen, that sort of thing. But it's really once the prescriber has decided that they're going to go forward.
Darshan
So you do a really interesting distinction that I've never seen drawn before. So I want to question it and sort of understand a little bit more. You talked about digital therapeutics, being comfortable that I'm sorry, it's not digital therapeutics, patient engagement in this context, really being from the, from the point of prescriber engagement and the prescribers written the prescription. Now, I guess my question is that, do you see things like clinical trials and stuff not to be part of your remit?
Desiree
To be honest, it's not part of my remit right now. Okay. I do think that there's a lot of parallels, though. So I think it's an area where we could absolutely expand more so because we're trying to solve for the same things, making patients aware of the resources that exist, allowing them to stay on therapy, if that's what their prescriber has asked them to do. So those things that we're tackling on the commercial side are also being addressed on the clinical side. So I think there's a lot of shared learnings that we could have.
Darshan
So do you have a counterpart in, in clinical who's doing this kind of stuff,
Desiree
they do focus on this, the clinical team that we have in our organization was sort of split out between clinical and commercial. So I sit more in the commercial side, but we do share, we have, you know, ways that we share information and make sure that we're pulling that through on both ends. But I think that, you know, there's even more room for opportunity to collaborate, because, again, we're solving for the same things.
Darshan
And what do you think those things are?
Desiree
So I think it's creating awareness. I think that's number one, probably adherence, but I don't, I don't like the term adherence when it's coming to patients, because it sounds like it's us wanting them to stay on therapy, but it's really about if the prescriber, if the physician wants them to stay on therapy, because it's the right thing to do for them that we allow them, or we enable that to happen. So I don't like the term really, but that is sort of what it is. And then I think affordability, that's a big one, especially on the commercial side.
Darshan
So let's talk a little bit about that. So you're talking about this, this discussion around creating awareness. So so I'm kind of map this out in my head, you've got your marketing teams have gone out there promoting a potential product, we'll call it x, I've no idea, a product. I know some of the products, okay, but let's not go into those, right? Yeah, let's, let's say there's a product, they've gone out and marketed it. Now, when does Deseret go, here's, here's how I get to build off of those building blocks. What are those building blocks they've built? And what are you building onto them?
Desiree
So I think it's that intersection between direct to consumer, like you said, and then what happens on the Patient Support side. So I think once the provider has decided they want to put somebody on an ohtsuka therapy, at that time, that's where we start to interject, whether it's through our field colleagues, or digitally or just meeting patients where they are, I think we have to be more creative than ever to figure out how to get them that information. And if you think about just the industry over the past several years, you know, Accenture came out with a great study about Patient Support about five years ago, and very little patients knew about patient support. And you know, they wanted to hear it directly from their physician. That was what that report said. And then this past year, they rereleased it. And they said, Have we made any progress, creating awareness around patient support programs? And the fact of the matter is No, we haven't made a ton of progress. And so I think one of the remit for my group is to figure out how do we go more direct to patient instead of relying on the physicians to tell them about Patient Support offerings? Because that hasn't worked? Well, you know, I think we have to continue to examine how that's done. And understandably, the physicians have so much on their plate, whether it's prior authorizations, all the different therapies that they use for their patients, just treating them in general to understand all the nuances of a patient support program is really difficult. So how do we create awareness directly to patients is, you know, one of the things we talked about.
Darshan
So what are some of the strategies you use? Because at what point are you influencing how, how does your compliance department come and go? This is great. This helps patients, but you're now crossing a line and what what do you guys have any bright lines or is it a situation by situation specific?
Desiree
I think the bright line is the provider had to say that this is the right therapy for them. So we don't want to influence what product they're on by any means. So it's it's the provider clearly saying this is the product that you're going to be prescribed. And then at that point, we can enter And try to make sure that they know about all the different offerings and things that we have to help them, you know, start and stay on therapy and have a good experience ultimately.
Darshan
So how do they inform you that the patient is going on to the product? But how do you know now's the time I can help the patient.
Desiree
So we have a few different mechanisms. And I think, like our field teams definitely help out so they can tell if a physician or that HCP in the office is saying, yes, we're going to start somebody on a note psychotherapy. And at that point, we can come in, you know, maybe with our field team or a digital offering. So there's different ways that we try to make sure that we're vetting that out, we don't want to inappropriately intervene are influenced by any means we're not a sales mechanism. So it's really important for us to intervene at the right time in the right way.
Darshan
That's really interesting. You're not a sales mechanism, but you are obviously engaging in a way that helps patients stay on a therapy that's right for them based on what the physician saying. How do you battle the perspective from a patient? Or from from physicians going yeah, you may not call yourselves that. But in the end, isn't that what you're doing? Like? What I hear you saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you try to err towards the medical affairs piece, if you will, from a we want to engage with patients, but give them the resources. But for better for worse. pharma has a reputation of going the wrong direction. So how does how do you and and we're not being able to go, but how do you make the efforts to to ensure that you're coming up at the right time, the right mental space for the for the clinicians?
Desiree
Yeah, I think it's not only the clinicians, but the patients. And I think it's been building that trust over time. I mean, we've had a patient support program in place since 2014. And I've been fortunate enough to be with it since then. So I think it's, it's, it sounds corny, maybe, but it's the vibe that we all have, like we are truly here to help patients. It is not about driving sales in any way, shape, or form, like we are truly a team committed to helping patients. And so that's really what we, we anchor towards that that's sort of fluffy and squishy, and maybe not everybody believes that, but that is absolutely the vibe and the sentiment that we have, and it's like a patient support. So I can speak for that myself. Also, I think it's just we're, you know, we work really closely with our legal and compliance colleagues to make sure that we don't ever cross that line, we don't want to come across as a smarmy pharmaceutical company, you know, we're not influencing a choice, because we have great offerings, we have great offerings, if they're on a product, and we want to make sure that they can start and stay on it appropriately. And if they need to discontinue, that's on their choice, and their physicians choice, so we're just trying to play in the space that's appropriate for our patients.
Darshan
So I'm gonna ask this question, because I'm curious, I'm just thinking, I'm on medications. And what if a pharmaceutical company just called me and said, We have resources for you? My first thought would be, how do you know who I am? And how did you find me? It's what we through that engagement? How does that even work?
Desiree
So a few different ways. I mean, we have the old school ways of just there's a brochure or when you get on a different product, you know, they get information around the Patient Support Program. So that's certainly one, I think another way is through our partnerships that we have, whether it's with a you know, hub, type program, pharmacies, whatever it is that they're, you know, disseminating that information on our behalf as well. We don't ever contact a patient without support or consent, I should say, you know, they have to consent if we're going to actually reach out to them in particular. So some of it might just be general awareness. And, you know, we don't pressure anybody into signing a consent, if they don't want to do that. That's not what we're trying to do. But we do try to support as many patients as possible, whether they consent or not. So we want to make sure that people are just aware of all the different resources and offerings that exist.
Darshan
So so what I'm hearing you say, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, is I call in and have program of some kind will say, look, we have some resources, would you like to be informed? So what I'm hearing you say is, number one, the patient's never surprised when they get that phone call from you. They've not only opted in, but are cognitively aware that they've opted in. We all know we've we've all signed those informed consents where we go, Yeah, I don't know what I signed up for. This is not one of those situations, they've proactively signed in and they're asking for resources. So so the types of resources I can imagine you're often being asked about, is this drug cost too much drop this cost for me. Is that professional, is that even accurate? Or is that just my perspective that drugs cost too much and
Desiree
I think that's you know, affordability is something that everybody asks about and some of it is just the unknown. I think some of it is the the stigma that exists with pharma that it's going to be too much. So I think patients naturally come out and say this is going to be really expensive because That's a branded product. And they may not know, they're just, they're just assuming based on different news articles or things that they're reading. So I think some of it is just clarifying or setting expectations and being transparent around, you know, this is your insurance coverage, this is how much it's gonna cost. These are the options available for you to reduce the cost if it's there. You know, obviously, with government insured patients, it's much more difficult. But, you know, across all the different disease states that we treat, and all the different products, it varies a lot. So, you know, CNS is very different than nephrology very different than digital therapeutics. So it really is, it just depends on the situation. And all of them are difficult to navigate. So I think one of our remits is to help them navigate the process to make it easy to make it understandable to be transparent, to not over promise and under deliver to have a good experience. Those are all things that are really important to us. And it's complex, you know, it's really complex to be a patient, a caregiver, even an HTTP, because you're basically saying, Okay, this is the treatment I want them to have, but I have no idea how much it's going to cost, it makes it hard to be consumer, so we're trying to make it a little bit easier in any way that we can.
Darshan
So interesting, um, so so we let's take a step back, and we can get into affordability. And that's a whole beast by itself. And quite honestly, it's one of those things that I'm almost afraid to touch because I don't know enough about it again, yeah, so complicated. But let's take a step back. And kind of you talked about how you've been involved in this process since 2014. What have been the big changes since 2014?
Desiree
I think the consumerism of healthcare, I think before in 2014, it was really largely driven by the health care provider. And they still play a crucial role. I don't mean to discount the roll by any means. But I think it was them. And it was the payers that really kind of, they made all the decisions, they made the decisions for the patients. And I think now patients are becoming a lot more savvy, there's a lot more online resources available. So they're doing the research, and they're they're navigating their own healthcare, and their own decisions the best way they can. And so I think we've all heard those circumstances where they're walking into the provider's office saying, I want to be on this treatment, and this is what I want to do. And this is how much I want to pay. And those situations are happening more and more. And with a pandemic, I think it really solidified that the consumerism of health care's here, they're playing a huge part in the decisions that are made. And if they don't like the decision that is made, they might go somewhere else to find somebody that will agree with their decision. So it's a really interesting time. And it's really interesting for, you know, Patient Support colleagues all across the globe, you know, whether it's at my company or a different one, we're all trying to navigate sort of this new empowerment that they have. And even that varies by disease state, not every cohort of patients is as empowered as another. So finding that right balance, finding the best way to get them information, finding, you know, the ways to meet them where they are, instead of trying to push them in the channels where we want them to go, we have to be where they are already searching.
Darshan
Sorry, there's someone who's decided to honk outside of poverty. So what you talked about is the is the empowerment of the patients I think is wonderful. But that same empowerment, if you go outside the US is seen as I can't believe you guys do this. I patients aren't. patients don't have the knowledge base to come in and tell you which drug to take. You being the healthcare provider, what is what is your perspective? And again, we're talking about desert his perspective on on his patient. I mean, obviously, patient empowerment is good, because you get to take control of your of your disease. But what is your perspective on our patients adequately knowledgeable, to be able to make that comment?
Desiree
That's a complex question. And it's probably gonna be a complex answer. Yeah. I mean, I'll take myself as a consumer of healthcare and somebody that helps my, you know, parents and grandparents navigate their own health care. There are times where I absolutely I go to, you know, Dr. Google, and I look at 5000 different things. And I go to advocacy organizations, and I go to sites in which I would, you know, I would consider them to be reputable sources. And I do some of my own research and I probably make some recommendations. So I'm, I'm an average patient, caregiver consumer, just like anybody else. And so, yeah, I think some of them are very equipped, and I think they know their own bodies and their disease states very well. However, there's a lot of misinformation out there. So people that don't know how to navigate or don't know the reputable sources, I think it's a lot more of a challenge. So they might, they might consider themselves very educated, but they might be getting misinformation and something that's not exactly credible. So I think that's the danger and so some You know, if I had to pick something that keeps me up at night is how do we, as a pharma manufacturer become a credible source? Because we have, you know, people doing research on these disease states, and we have a lot of true experts at our organization, we want to share that information. So what's the best way that we can do that and make sure that we retain that credibility to not cross the line and inappropriately push either?
Darshan
So so you're struggling with what I believe it's called a Dunning Kruger effect? Is that what it's called? Where? Oh, I don't know. I think that's what was called where basically, the it's the smartest people go, I don't know anything. And the people who have the least knowledge are like, I know everything there is to know about this topic. Yeah. So but but it's a real effect. And it's not I'm not blaming anyone for it. I mean, I'm, I'm sure I say that about things like, I'll admit this, I'm kind of redesigned my house, and I know nothing about it. But I think I think I'm so smart about it. The truth is I should I should not be allowed anywhere near designing anything. In the same way. Our certain patients are not equipped for that. On the other hand, there are certain people who are so is there a variation of the types of resources you deploy in a way that enables the people who are ready for, versus guiding the people to go back to their doctor and talk to them for those who aren't? And how do you draw that distinction?
Desiree
Yeah, I think I mean, I think the stance that at least I take I'll speak just for myself is I want to provide credible information. So if they somehow come to Otsuka Patient Support, I want them to be able to find what we consider credible information. So they can look up and research things themselves. But at least we're pointing them in the right direction, we're helping them navigate. It's almost like we're concierge, like we're trying to help them navigate it the best way possible, because everybody's journey is different. So it's really hard to just point them in one path or just one direction. But we want to be transparent. And we want to make sure that people can find things in a simple and easy manner. So they can make some informed decisions. I think it's really looking at what we consider credible. I mean, advocacy organizations are wonderful. I think academia is wonderful. Again, I think some of our own resources are really, really excellent, because we have those experts, you know, within the organization that have researched this for a very long time. So we're just trying to provide information when we can in the right place.
Darshan
So So we talked about resources, and we talked about how we now have an empowered patient who is looking at how they can get access to their drugs in a cheaper, more effective way. And you talk a little bit about the digitalization of pharma if you will, I just came up with that term. I don't know if that's a real word. That's the real world. Yeah, it is. Okay, good. We'll go with that then. But but the the idea, I guess I'm wondering is, through your department, do you find yourself building bridges with the digitization or digital healthcare providers? And what I mean by that? Is the good RX is of the world or the Amazon pharmacies of the world? Do you find yourself going look, for better or for worse, my patients are going to end up going there. If they are going to end up going there. I want them to have a soft landing, I want them to understand what this looks like, and have those conversations upfront. What what kind of engagement do you have in that world.
Desiree
So I don't want to give anything proprietary here. But I will say that is of the utmost top of mind for us, trying to figure out exactly where our patients are going and meeting them where they are. So all of that is on the table. I think we're looking at all the different digital places where they are, you know, Google, I think that's one that everyone can agree upon that paid search is really important. If somebody is looking for affordability of a product, we want on syncopation support to come up so we can help them. You know, we want to help them navigate it. But ultimately, they're going to end up other places too. And so we have to be cognizant of where those places are, and then figure out what is the right engagement to have with them to make sure that they can still find our information, even if they're on these different sites and places.
Darshan
So it's funny, you mentioned Google. Do you? Do you find it? I guess I'm trying to understand a little bit. Is this more of a marketing function? Or is this more of a patient support function? But do you find yourself engaging in things like banner ads or pay per click type advertising? Or do you go that's not part of my remit? Because I'm not trying to pull patients in? I'm trying to help patients, but those are kind of connected. So
Desiree
I don't know. I agree. I think it's becoming blurrier. Right. I think that patients ultimately want to have that one voice because they don't know that there's specific rules for patients. In support versus marketing versus medical, you know, we want it to be cohesive and just make sense how it is. So I mean, those are some of the deep conversations that we have with our legal and compliance colleagues to make sure that, again, we're not crossing any lines, but we're doing things that are appropriate. And with the right intent. I mean, we talked about what our intent is a lot. And as long as it's patient focus patient centric, and there's good justification as why we want to do something to better help patients that are on our therapies, then, you know, that's something that we can talk about, I think, during the pandemic, more than ever before, we've partnered more with our marketing colleagues, and even our medical colleagues, and we're trying to figure out how to really show up as one organization versus a bunch of fragmented pieces. Now,
Darshan
one of the things, I found that my marketing friends in general do very, very well. And knowing that you are president Marketing and Communications for HBase Mid Atlantic region, I expect you to be just as amazing at this. is having a feel for how do others do this? What have you seen in terms of level setting, as to what Otsuka does it? And again, we're not speaking for sugar, but suka does it, versus some of your other competitors? What are the flavors of digital Patient Support? And how does it differ across companies?
Desiree
Yeah, I can, I'll think back to the pandemic. So I think that was really a catalyst for a lot of patient support programs. And I remember that Lily took out a full page ad on their, you know, diabetes, insulin medication, and it was just how they can get it, how it can be affordable for patients. And it was I think, either in the Wall Street Journal in new york times something so that was in the paper, it was huge. And then we started to see I think commercials for Abby, Genentech, different ones that were popping up, where for the first time, we're really seeing that they're talking about their Patient Support Program, just to create awareness that there are resources available for people. So I don't know, maybe it was just me. And that was the first time I was really paying attention to commercials, I have Hulu and everything else. So you know, I fast forward through a lot of commercials. So maybe I just missed the boat. But during the pandemic, I definitely saw a lot more where brands and Patient Support seem to be collaborating more, and creating awareness that there are programs to help out. And even with Biogen, you know, their, their recent approval, they're all simers medication, if you go on their website, the first thing that shows up is their Patient Support Program. So I think these types of programs are what patients are searching for. They want disease, state information, they want other things, but at least from my perspective, I think people are searching for affordability and access related questions. And so those are the things that need to sort of shine, and they need to come out very clearly to be transparent about what's going on.
Darshan
Um, it's funny, you mentioned me, you mentioned a few times, but it sort of finally hit me. So I must be slow, but it is what it is.
Desiree
It's Monday.
Darshan
I guess my question is, you pointed out how this all capitalized during COVID, during the pandemic, and I love how we're referring to it almost like it was in the past. And it's still here. Yeah. I guess my question that goes along with it is are you seeing a different reliance in the field force? And is that becoming a catalyst for a different type of engagement? Or do you do you think that this is just temporary, we're gonna go back to the field force? And because they are, they're the primary way that companies will engage with patients going forward?
Desiree
I mean, I think it would be naive to say that it's going to stay exactly the same, I think we've seen it be very different. digital engagement is absolutely here. So you know, when you think about HTTPS, that's really where the field force is interacting. And so for them, I think that we're seeing some HTTPS flex their preference to there's some times where they want to reach people on demand and not have to specifically wait for somebody to come visit their office, or they're engaging digitally already, you know, they've been doing zoom calls and things over the pandemic, and maybe they want to continue that. So it's not taking as much time out of their day to go have you know, a live conversation. So I think those things will absolutely persist. It's probably physician to physician what their preferences but I think taking into account their preference for the first time rather than saying, nope, we have a field for us, this is what it is, and this is what we're going to do. I think now we've opened our eyes to the fact that it has to be more flexible. And we have to, you know, in the same way, I talked about meeting patients where they are we have to meet hcps where they are to so are there better ways to engage with them? For some of them? Absolutely. And we have to pay attention to that because they need the information as well. But looking at patient engagement, which I work on a little more specifically. I think that there's times where patients aren't getting all the information from their HCP not because they're not Good healthcare providers, but because maybe they don't know all the nuances, it's a lot to, it's a lot to think that they're going to know every single thing about it. So they have to point them in some sort of direction. So again, meeting patients where they are, but then also equipping hcps to steer them in the right direction to say, hey, if you need resources, I know you can go here, and you'll be able to find them. So I think it's, you know, it's it's complex, and we're trying to navigate it. But I think it's all about preference and experience, and that's more important than it ever has been before.
Darshan
So I know I'm well past the time I really had out here if I'm gonna ask this question, because I'm very curious. Um, when when I, I worked as a pharmacist for 20 years? Yeah. And one of the things that always popped up for me was, you'd have physicians with no a lot of the information you're pointing out now patients know a lot of the information but not all patients know all the information. Not all physicians know all the information. And I say physicians, I mean, prescribers. Really. My question for you is, people always say, Oh, yeah, we connect to the pharmacist my experience has been laid down. I know you say you do, and I'm sure you put some resources behind it. But it's, it's never it's almost an afterthought. But the more I'm talking to people in digital health, there's this pivoting going on, where resources are being pivoted towards pharmacists, do you find that there is more of an engagement and educational component with pharmacists? Or has that not quite taken off yet? And we're aiming towards the future?
Desiree
Yes, I don't want to again, give anything dietary. But I will say that we are absolutely strategically aligned with pharmacists pharmacists have for the past several years, according to Gallup survey have been the second most trusted provider in the patient's care continuum. So I think the first was nurses, then it was pharmacists. And then it was hcps, meaning physicians. And so I think, you know, Pat, on the back, I think that we've always tried to really pay attention to pharmacists, they're absolutely vital to the success of a patient and they're interjected into their healthcare. So yes, pharmacists are very, very important to us.
Darshan
So how about this, we'll have you back in a few months. And hopefully, you'll be in a place where you can tell us a little bit more about that. But obviously, you've got to at the wrong time, because there's some exciting things that are happening over where you are now, both in digital health and in pharmacist. So I'm really excited to see where that goes. But before we Before we continue, I do have to ask you, what is one question like to ask the audience, which is both patients, healthcare providers and other people in industry? Based on what we've discussed?
Desiree
Well, I think in the spirit of meeting people where they are, I would love to know from the audience, where do they go for their information? So if they're seeking disease, state information, or even medication information, where are they going to find it? So I expect to see probably an array of different answers. But I'm very curious, because we're all patients and caregivers at some point. So we're just people trying to navigate our lives. And so I would love to know where they go.
Darshan
So I usually try to answer first. So my answer would be start with Dr. Google, then I like to think that I'm, I'm smarter than the average bear, because Aren't we all? And then I answer that by going, I know about our x list. So then I'd go to our x list and look up what they have. Then I'm, I'm so smart that I'm going to now look at Web MD, because you know, I can understand this stuff. I'm cool like that, right?
Desiree
Exactly.
Darshan
Exactly. There you go. And then I'm gonna go, I don't like the answer. Web MD gave me or RX list gave me. So where can I find a weird forum that justifies the answer I want? Yeah, that's generally my process. Because I know what answer I want. I just can justify it yet. Oh, that's interesting.
Desiree
That's interesting psychology because you're searching for the answer you want. That is dangerous. That's very interesting. That's very interesting. I like that insight. That's a good insight for today. Yep.
Darshan
Well, because think about it later. If I admit that I need a drug, it means I have something wrong with me. What I'd rather have is something that says this is fine. Yes, it could be this, but Web MD always gives you cancer.
Desiree
Yeah, that's a good point. Okay, all right. Yeah. Dr. Google's my answer. I mean, I absolutely go to Google. But again, I think I'm kind of savvy, too. So I might go to an advocacy organization. But you know, you never know.
Darshan
But my next question for you. What is something you've learned in the last month or so that you think our audience would love to hear about?
Desiree
I think, well, something to watch is this giant opioid settlement with the wholesalers? Right, and the impact that that will have on the industry. So that's something we're watching very closely, because it could absolutely at some point affect affordability for our patients. I know it's downstream, and it's not necessarily something that people will think of, but I'm interested to see how that ends up and how the wholesalers react.
Darshan
I think that's gonna be dramatic. Like the impact will be dramatic because in many ways, what the opioid companies did was influence prescribers, but also patients to see that they need more opioids. I mean, one of the interesting things I'd read about was, when I worked as a pharmacist, the key component was patients should have zero pain. And that sounds like such a great concept, because you're right, and patients should have zero pain. But the impact of that means just keep giving opioids till they have zero pain. And that's that's a problem. So I'd be curious to see how that plays out, not just in the context of the distributors and wholesalers, but overall itself, because I think we haven't seen the ramifications. And if you look at the OIG, opinion letters, you're seeing some of the ramifications play out through that. So that should be interesting. That's a good point. Um, my next question is what made you happy this week?
Desiree
My son, my littlest one, he had a big soccer tournament this weekend. And he did awesome. And so he learned a good, valuable lesson that hard work pays off. And so it was really nice to see that and he ended up scoring 10 goals. So I was really happy.
Darshan
I don't know much about soccer. That seemed like a really high number. Yeah,
Desiree
I mean, they got second in the tournament. And I think we didn't even think they would make it to the final. Don't tell him I said that. So no, it was great. I was super happy for him. But as a parent to see your kid learn, you know, hard work actually results in something really positive is excellent. So that was exciting.
Darshan
And my last question is, well, let me do a quick recap, just to make sure we're on the same page. We we talked about a few different things. So we talked a little bit about the Patient Support Program, we talked about what patient engagement looks like you talked about, in the case of Otsuka, you guys have CNS, you guys have never left your own Afro naturopath and digital digital therapeutics. We spoke a lot about affordability and how that plays a massive role in patient engagement, public awareness, we went into what does digital therapeutics mean? So we talked about chipping the pill apps, we talked about digital solutions, we talked a little bit about direct consumer awareness. So how does that distinguish itself from patient engagement and the types of resources? And when does it kick in. And one of the real interesting points you made was the fact that one is pre prescription one is post prescription, and the impact of that. We talked a little bit about the role of patient support, and that includes awareness and helping with adherence and helping with affordability. We talked about some of the resources, you have things like field and digital and and sort of how do you engage directly with the patient. We've talked a little bit about the Dunning Kruger effect, which I think was thrown in there. We talked a little bit about how what you do is very similar to but distinct from clinical trials and pre commercial, if you will. And the timeline. So everything from what happened between 2014 and 2021, at this point, which, to me was really interesting, when you pointed out the consumerism of healthcare practitioners, but I think it's fascinating, we really got into talking a little bit more about resources and outreach opportunities. And you've done everything from engaging with pharmacists, you can't talk too much about that, and engaging with digital opportunity. So Amazon or Google or any of those, and you can't talk about that either. But those are things that people should probably stay aware of. Because it because companies in general are reaching out and they're saying, we want to meet you the patient where you are not where we'd like you to be. Yeah. And then we talked a little bit about what the state is right now. We talked a little bit about Lilly and we talked about Abby and we talked about the field force and the changing roles. Did I miss anything?
Desiree
That was pretty good. That's a very nice recap. We talked about a lot. We did.
Darshan
Last last question for you. Where can people reach you if they have questions?
Desiree
Probably on LinkedIn that's best so does very precisely on LinkedIn.
Darshan
Great and you can find me on DarshanTalks on Twitter, just find me at my website DarshanTalks, calm. deserts was wonderful. Thank you so much for
Desiree
coming. Thank you for having me. It was a delight. I look forward to talking again.
Desiree
This is the DarshanTalks podcast, regulatory guy, irregular podcast with hosts Dr. Shaun Kulkarni. You can find the show on twitter at DarshanTalks or the show's website at DarshanTalks.com