Darshan
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of DarshanTalks. I'm your host Darshan Kulkarni. It's my mission to help you trust the products you depend on. As you may know, I'm an attorney. I'm a pharmacist, and I advise companies with FDA regulated products. So if you think about drugs, wonder about devices, or obsessive a pharmacy is the podcast for you. I do have to also always specify, I am an attorney, but I'm not your attorney. I am a pharmacist, but I'm not your pharmacist. So this is neither legal advice, nor clinical advice. I do these live streams. A lot of fun, I find myself learning something new from guests like the one I have today, every single time. But it would be nice to know someone's actually listening. So if you'd like what you hear, please like, leave a comment, please subscribe. Please ask questions while we're having this discussion. Please leave questions if you'd like and, and just tag Robin or myself, and we'd be happy to get back to you with answers. Or if you just like the whole discussion itself, please share it. And we'd love to sort of reach back out to you. Um, today's podcast. Also, if you want to reach me, you can find me on Twitter or Darshan Fox, or just go to our website at DarshanTalks.com. On today's podcast, today's live stream is about hopefully, well, we have a lot of plans about what today's livestream is going to be about. But hopefully it's going to end up being about client management. And I think that's a really interesting conversation because they always say things like, under promise and over deliver and all those good things. But what happens in a world where the client expects the world? And sometimes that's just impossible. So how do you meet client expectations reach out to clients in a way that that gets them to where they need to be in a way that's compliant, especially in a heavily regulated world, like the FDA world. So if you are in if you engage with contractors, if you're engaged with medical writers specifically, if you have questions about client management, on either side of the story, please be part of this, please reach out. And it's gonna be a really, really fun conversation. I do want to point out that our guest for today is the founder and president of witsel innovations Inc. I do want to clarify, it is not whistle solutions, because I got that wrong.
Robin
three or five minutes ago, Sean, come on now.
Darshan
The number of times I've had you on and and how long I've known you. I would you think I get that right. But I saw
Robin
some slack. Okay, so
Darshan
some slack. Thank you, thank you. Um, but I'm really excited to have her on, we've had her on before. And she's always charming, always super, super smart. And always makes makes me feel like I learned a little bit more from her every single time. So our guest today, Robin witsel. Hey, Robin
Robin
darsan, how you doing?
Darshan
I have been good, busy, but not gonna complain too much. And from what I gather, talking to the people on the podcast, on the live stream, everyone's super busy, which I think is, is fascinating.
Robin
For the course for our industry, you hit q3 q4, and like, the wheels come off the bus. So
Darshan
we have to spend all their money right before the end of the year.
Robin
I think everybody likes to give the FDA a Hanukkah gift or a Christmas gift for the rest of the year. And I'm sure that the FDA is on to that.
Darshan
I think we'll figure that part out. Um, that which actually raises the question, how has COVID been for you?
Robin
Huh? busy. I mean, clearly, our industry has had to, to, to pivot a lot. I mean, how to figure it out new things, how to figure out working from home, how to figure out how to keep patients safe, and I think it's not going to get any easier with the Delta variant. You know, but there still is a need for the development of new therapeutics for patients. You know, cancer doesn't go away because of a pandemic. So, so yeah, we've we've been busy as we're trying to accommodate the demands of our industry and deliver the best we can,
Darshan
which I think is really interesting comment you made, which is, it doesn't go away just because the poet accepted, you know, people have been going less and less in a treatment for cancer and a lot of the therapies rebounded from the fact that no one went in during COVID or whatever you want to call the original wave of COVID. And now they're all coming in and they find this a lot of people coming in with more advanced diving But speaking of that, that part of the story has that also impacted the type of work you're doing in people who said, let me figure out what I need to do. Let me see if I can sort of restabilized myself, are they now coming back with greater force with greater sort of interest right now that they just held off on last year?
Robin
I'm not exactly sure. I may think we've seen adjustments with specific clinical trial protocols, things like that, trying to accommodate I've seen where the data have been impacted by some of those, those delays and getting treatment. But I don't have a broad enough viewpoint of the you know, the entire medical industry to know for sure.
Darshan
So so let's, let's talk a little bit about so these people, obviously, these people's potential customers, potential clients, coming to you, my question for you is, um, these clients often are now going I have certain expectations, I have to meet certain timelines, how do you now coach them through? I can help you with these timelines. But this, these are the actual facts, do you find yourself coaching these potential clients? Or do they come in and they're doing RFPs, and everyone's coming in saying, either you do this or you can't.
Robin
So we have kind of a whole range of size of clients. So some of our clients are mid size or smaller pharma. In that case, they're not necessarily doing RFPs. But they will come to us and say, Hey, you know, we really need help with this NDA submission, or we really need help with this ind, I'm sorry, I'll stop talking about acronyms. We need help with this new drug application or this investigational new drug application so that we can do our first in human studies. They'll come in and say that, and then I'll take a look at the timeline that they're proposing. And there's specific questions you ask, right, like you asked questions about. So when are you expecting these data? Or when are you expecting your last patient last visit? or what have you finished all of the the good laboratory practice non clinical studies that you need in order to do and an investigational new drug application to launch your first in humans protocol? will ask those kind of questions. And invariably, they haven't. So we're like, Well, yeah, so there are prerequisites that you're going to need to get to the finish line you want to get to. And sometimes we'll have, the client will have somebody who's like a project manager, and they've got this lovely Gantt chart, but it's not founded in reality, it's like, I see that you have, you're getting your data here. And three weeks later, you want to submit to the FDA, I'm not sure how that's going to work. When you have seven or eight unique documents, you have to design you have to write and actually have strategy around and understand through how to get there. So those are some of the conversations we've been having. And I think there's a part of it, where, like, if I'm an honest player, I have to say that to you, I'm not going to lie to you to get your business, right. But the other piece is I have to communicate risk to you. There's risk to an accelerated timeline, that doesn't make sense for your team. And if I'm not upfront about that, then I'm not doing you any favors. And if someone doesn't pick our company because of that, I think we probably were probably better off.
Darshan
Which which really raises that question, right? Because as you start getting into this world, where you're talking about managing expectations, what what strategies have you over time develop around engaging, educating, because as you mentioned, there's some people come in with a vast amount of knowledge around operationalizing things, but they don't understand the industry. And they come in saying, Look, I know how to run a six sigma team, and I know how to be lean, and we're trying to all these different things. And then you're going that's all great, but none of that ties to the reality of what I have to work with. So so you obviously need to have a conversation but how do you have that conversation without making them who might be at a director or VP level not feel like you're either talking down to them or they're they just don't feel like you're respecting their role in their position.
Robin
It's, it's a challenging a challenging balancing act, for sure. I think. I think being able to set a framework around risk is an important one. So or a framework around expectations like this is what the agency expectations look like. And we want to make sure you're, you're gonna put your best face forward For the agency, and if you don't have these components, it's hard to do so. So I think those are the the initial strategies that we take on it I personally take on.
Darshan
So your strategy is really explain the risks of them. And if they understand the risk, hopefully what that means is that they will understand that it's in their best interest to listen to you.
Robin
I think we'd all do things better if we did it my way. I tell my kids that all the time.
Darshan
How does that work out for you with your kids?
Robin
Not at all? Not
Darshan
at all. So is it any better at the VP level?
Robin
Yeah, right. I'd rather face the VP level than then my kids for that kind of stuff. No, I'm kidding. If anybody, I think for the most part, there, there's there can be sort of an aspirational thing, like, Oh, we could do this. Even with some of our existing clients, it's like, I understand this is what you want. There needs to be a massive change in your organization for you to get there. You know, this is how your organization is structured. And I think I'm not telling them anything they don't know. In some cases I've had where people say, Hey, can you put out an email? Because they want to be able to say, like, we talked to this outside person, and this is what she said, and and I get it like I'm, you know, I get it. That's like a, it's, it's not a bad strategy. If someone's trying to manage expectations internally. I they, I think there are times when they know it's not really feasible. And they're kind of wondering, is there any kind of magic out there? And no, I mean, I wish there were but there's not that case,
Darshan
are you often guiding them into basically getting another team or external, external team to help that helped them first write their ship before directing their ship? And that case? How do you? Do they come to you and go, look, actually, what you're telling me is, this needs to be fixed, before you can come in and do your role? And correct me if I'm wrong, Robin, but I don't think is in quality matters. I could be wrong, I really am.
Robin
No, we're not doing.
Darshan
You're not. So if that's true, do you find yourself basically then pointing them to words, another team who might be able to help with that?
Robin
Sometimes, I mean, sometimes I'm I'll say to them, you know, what you need is something like x? Or have you talked to someone like Why? Sometimes it's folks who have deeper insights into regulatory strategy within a specific division. Yeah, each each division of FDA is sort of like their own little family, and they have their own kind of unspoken rules and the spoken roles. And I think it's important to understand that when companies that are acting with the agency, yes, there are meetings, and they're put on a resume now. And but really, it's the proofs in the pudding with the documentation you provide them? Are you telling the story, are you giving them the nonfiction story, they need to understand the safety and efficacy of your compound, because it's going to be putting a person or if you're in the veterinary group, here, it's we put it in an animal. So it's, you have to be able to create that story and be able to stand behind it. And I think there's, there's a, for, especially for some of the smaller companies, they've made promises, they've said, oh, we're gonna get this in before the end of the year. And they may not have the data to do so. They, they answer then that, you know, or we've created a corporate goal around this. And it's like, well, you know, you don't have what you're doing right now have what you need right there. But, you know, we can talk about how to plan backwards, how to look at when you'll have those deliverables and maximize the time that you can, right now that you don't have them. So that when when you do have them, you're prepared, and you can move quickly and efficiently. And that's the best you can do. You know, it's I think, and there are times when that's actually I think, why they come to us is to have that conversation.
Darshan
So it's interesting, what you're talking about, in many ways, is where the team or the company itself is split up into two teams, the team that believes that something's possible, that believes that something's impossible or unlikely, and you are now often put in the position of arbitrator or or mediator between these two opposing goals. Um, yeah,
Robin
I mean, sometimes Yes, I think we have that situation. Another situation that sort of seems to pop up is we will have even on a specific document, conflict between team members on that document. And, you know, we're trying to walk them through that concept of getting the document right is more important than being right and that's a very sensitive topic. Because I think sometimes folks are very focused on where they're coming from. And they're not really looking across what that purpose of that document is. So I, it definitely is a struggle. And it puts us in an odd position because we don't truly have authority over this person. We're consultants or team coming in to help. I bet you face that a lot.
Darshan
I faced that a fair bit. And I think, I think the way I approach that problem, when someone says that they want to do this a specific way, I first I first sort of start with the mentality. There's more than one way to skin the cat. And and maybe, maybe they have a thought process I haven't considered yet. What I have in mind may not necessarily be the only answer. That's right for them. So what I what I often start with is, why do you think what you're saying is the right way? Okay, let explain that to me, then they might say, XYZ reason. But he's poking holes at it. Does that make sense in light of this guidance in light of this expectation in light of this? That's when they start cracking a little bit, and they go? Well, and you're asking them with your often conferences, you've done this more than a few times? And then you go, look, I totally understand that you have this way of doing things. And we might be able to fit a square peg into a round all. But is that really where you want to be? Because in the end, you're looking for x result. And if we're looking for x result, fitting that square peg into that round hole is more unlikely to give you the results you want? Better, we doing what we've done 50 times before, which results in a more predictable outcome.
Robin
I'm a little I mean, so I mean, well, I mean, I think I think there's always opinion, right? opinion is everyone has an opinion. And then there's regulation or guidance. So it's not that Robin whistle saying, hey, you can't you can't do a first in human study. Because you don't have your, your good laboratory practice toxicology studies done. It's not Robin saying that it's the FDA. And there's nothing my opinion about it can you know, even if you've done many of your non clinical studies, they aren't done according to you know, good laboratory practice. They don't, they don't count. Yeah, yeah. And I don't, I don't mean they're not valuable in terms of learning something I'm not saying they're not valuable in terms of how you've characterized this, or proof of concept or something you're doing is novel and interesting, and potentially a breakthrough for for the patients that you want to help. I'm saying that the FDA has very specific requirements, and and they're there for a reason. You know, I think, I think, I mean, coming back to sort of the vaccines for COVID, right, they weren't allowed to jump through hoops, they had to, they had to do the studies, they had to provide the data, they had to demonstrate safety and efficacy, like anything else. And, and it's good that we have those rules in place. Because, you know, if the last year has taught us nothing, that would have been an opportunity to skip the rules, and they didn't, and we're probably all better off for it. So, you know, I'm, I'm not trying to couch it in terms of, you know, hey, we're doing it the way we've always done it. That is not at all what I think of as a best practice, I think the best practices, if I'm reading the guidance, interpreting the guidance correctly, here's what you need. And here's what you have. And then we can start talking about how do you get how do you bridge that gap? Yeah,
Darshan
yeah. So so you're, you're often find yourself in a position where you are explaining what you could consider to be the ideal place you want to be compared to what they would consider it to be the ideal place they want to be, but you pointed out something that is often a problem, which is, you're not the asset holder, you are not the decision maker, you are a consultant expert. Do you find pushback in the teams? Or is it generally speaking one or two stakeholders who are often very important, but they're the ones pushing back and it just have an inordinate amount of influence.
Robin
Um, it can have all the above, um, it can't be any of that. But I think something that's important is that I recognize that the people that are coming to us, they, especially if it's a new client, they have so much more exposure to this therapeutic to this space. And population to the needs of that patient population to what a promising druggable target will look like. They know more than I do. And I try to honor that expertise. And what I'm trying to say to them is, hey, yes, you are that expert there. You know, this is what this guidance says, if you've had different conversations with the agency, by all means, let me know, because we will accommodate what you've negotiated with them. I mean, so I think there's an opportunity to make sure that we're not, you know, trying to make them feel patronized or are talked down to, I think that I mean, we're around for a collaboration a partnership. And if that's not what they want, we're probably not the right company for them. And that's okay. I mean, you know, there's a lot of companies out there. Well, there's a handful that do what we do, and maybe one of the other ones is better. But I I don't think I'd be able to kind of sleep at night are telling people something that's not true, right? I'm just not who I am. I'm not a Great Deceiver. It's not my strong suit, you know?
Darshan
I think the UFC appreciates that probably. So, so let's ask that question, I'm actually looking at your website, as you can tell. And one of the things that's really jumping out of me, and if, again, this might be a limitation of what websites can do, which is they can only tell one part of the story. In the end, you've got to have a discussion. But I guess one of my questions is, I'm seeing a lot of this stuff on here. One of the things I'm not seeing is engagement with the FDA in terms of the the different meetings that you might have, do you also tend to help prepare for those meetings and write out the questions and and sort of justify the answers? Or do you see that as something that's usually done by the company? And the reason I'm asking that question is tying that into the conflicts that have to that are occurring in the background as you're formulating the response?
Robin
So there, there are different aspects, and I'll kind of chunk those apart. So there's the actual meeting with the FDA, right? Yeah. And we don't traditionally attend that though, I think it'd be fun to do so I have in the past in my past life. And then there's this piece of when you request a meeting with the FDA, there's a requirement that you send them materials in advance and the materials that you owe them, they there's a very specific time limit between the time that you're requesting it, you have to send the stuff and when you get the meeting. So it's at that point of requesting the meeting, it's a good idea to know, the questions you want to ask them. So we do work on that we work with them on Okay, what are the Have you been? What are the what are the gaps that you need to fill? What are the questions that you have? What are the things that could stop you from moving forward. And then there are specified meetings around different time windows. So if you're going if you're planning on doing your first in human study, and you're going to file your investigational new drug application, they'll do a pre ind meeting where you're going to go and talk to the agency. And that's, that's the opportunity for the, for the company to figure out what the path is to get to there. Yes, you know, it's their opportunity to say, this is what we're doing. This is our plan. This is the patient population we're interested in, they can map out those different pieces and ask those questions. So then when they do go to filing their ind, they're more likely to get to. Yeah, go ahead, try your first name and study. I think this is promising as opposed to slow down, we got to talk. So that's, that's something we work on a lot. And I think there's a there's different strategies around how to write those, but I generally say start with the questions, and then put your brain in the space of the regulatory regulator, what is it when they read the question? What are they gonna think? Like, how do you want to walk them through? So you always answer the question, you always ask the question in a way that you that you want the answer to be yes. Right. Like, does the agency think that but you need to provide them those ideas like okay, we've done this, we've done this, we looked at this research says this, and and it lands them at your Yes, hopefully, when you when you're done with the answer.
Darshan
Um, this is a question that's coming to me from my perfect how to phrase this question properly. Because there's two schools of thought I have I'm slightly diverting from the questions we're having on just customer engagement. And we're talking a little bit about regulatory engagement as we start talking about this. So as you know, I teach at the University of Sciences where I teach in the biomedical writing program. So anyone who's from New sciences Yeah, hi.
Robin
built and built
Darshan
One of the big things they talk about is the inbred method of writing. Have you heard of it before? Or Pete in Moran? It's basically the format they follow. Oh, okay. Have a appropriate writer for the agency, and they have a whole thing. And I'm sure we can. Absolutely. On the other hand, one of the things I tend to do, and this is where my students sort of struggle, is I make them go down the Iraq format, which is what lawyers used to push a point. Okay, rule analysis conclusion. I'm
Robin
using acronyms on me, come on now. All right, say it again, I'm already down
Darshan
to the one I use. Okay. I are AC. Okay, rule analysis conclusion, the one that's in red, and now that we're talking about this, I'm gonna try to see if, if I can remember what it stands for. In red format. It stands for introduction, methods, results, discussion, conclusion. So the question I have is, when you're engaging with the agency, you're trying to convince them of a specific viewpoint? Have you found me in read format to be the best way to get there? Or do you think a more I love that where you were, I can already see your answer? Or do you think? Or do you think like a legal format where you where the entire job is convincing is a better format? Or both of those are wrong? And there's a better way to do it?
Robin
Well, I mean, I'm looking at if I'm looking at him read this, this is a manuscript to me, right? This is how you would approach a manuscript. And it's and and rarely in a literary writing, are you truly writing a manuscript? Right? It's not necessarily. I mean, there are certain documents where there is the telling of the story where there is going to be, hey, you've got to introduce it, you've got to provide a little bit of background. Yeah, you need to provide rationale for why you're doing this. But, you know, I don't think that's necessarily, when you're talking to a regulator. The best approach, I mean, let's start with, unless what you're doing is the cutting edge of cutting edge, they've probably seen or heard something like it. And they know more than, than we do, like, right? They look at every every company, especially when you think about how specialized divisions are, they see the things that have come in. So even some of you know, the novel cell therapies, right now they've, they looked at other novel cell therapies. So if you're introducing them to this concept, you're telling them something they already know. And it's sort of a waste of real estate. So instead, I think it's about really, I mean, any any writing should be Who's your audience? What does the audience think? How are you going to bring the audience to what you what you need them to know. So start with this idea of your audience is pretty sophisticated. So if you do want to introduce your topic, it can be lightly done. And then you can get really into the kinds of questions they might have what you know, and, and perhaps even what their initial objection might be. And maybe that's what you mean by rule analysis conclusion, like you're thinking about, you know, in their minds, they might be questioning why we're doing x, okay, well then just say out loud, why are you doing x?
Darshan
Yeah, yeah. So we're, as you know, we usually aim for about 1520 minutes. We're already at 28 minutes, but
Robin
we never keep it to 15 minutes, but I think we never do 31 I
Darshan
always aim for it. I always have this imaginary aim that I'm gonna have a really tight podcast today. I never ever get there. But it's always that goal. But as always, you're fascinating, amazing having you on. Just want to sort of clarify for everyone. You can always go to our website, at whistle innovations, calm, not whistle solutions. With some innovation. I really hope that someone called whistle solutions going No, no, feel free to pitch it. But whistle innovations.com You can also reach her on Twitter at Robin witzel. And she is a prolific Tweeter, so you can find her. I've had many discussions with her. In fact, is that how we first talked Robin? Maybe the early days of Twitter
Robin
might be that might have been Yeah, I don't remember but that could have been.
Darshan
And then there's LinkedIn where you can find her as well. Um, I just
Robin
ask if you reach out to me on LinkedIn, tell me who you are, because I get a lot of random LinkedIn requests. So it's you're much better off if you send me a note.
Darshan
One of my favorite ones on LinkedIn was I had this bar from Indonesia reached out to me I still to this day, I have no idea why this was literally I looked at their profile. I just said Barber, like, come on. If you were like a filly barber maybe out like five this is really unlikely here.
Robin
Yeah. So what you're saying is don't be affiliate barber or an Indonesian barber if we're
Darshan
Indonesian barber is where I draw the line. Sure, there's still a barber. Um, if you've gone from being from barbering to, to write to medical writing, yeah, feel free to reach out absolutely happy to talk. At least connected to me in some way. Um, so as you know, we asked four questions, the first one we've already answered, which is how can people reach you? And that was a question we just answered. Here's the next question I have for you. Based on what we've discussed, what would you like to ask the audience?
Robin
Oh, wow, this is a good question. Um, what I like to ask the audience, I think I'd like to ask the audience what brings them to this podcast? Like why are they here? What are the things that they gain from showing up and, and listening with us today? I mean, be more fun if they could be asking those questions directly, but I hear.
Darshan
So as you know, I try to answer that question for myself. I seriously, I find myself learning something new every single time I talk to talk to my guests. I've had CEOs like yourself on here I've had bioethicists. I've had major government officials, I've had advertisers, you name them, I've had them on each person brings this unique perspective. It makes me look at the world in a different way. And I can't think of anything better to do than talk to you guys so so I appreciate you guys every single time I talk to you so thank you. And
Robin
I learned I learned Iraq and
Darshan
in red back today in red and read and read
Robin
today, okay.
Darshan
We'll make sure we have more educational sessions for you.
Robin
You know, I'm a young soul I got plenty learn Bring it on,
Darshan
young person, not just the soul. Our next question, what is something you learned in the last month?
Robin
Or so something I learned in the last month I actually learned something really interesting yesterday, and I need to dig deeper. Okay, someone who talked to me about, like, the way that you feel when you're interacting with somebody is a mirror of how they're feeling. And I found that intriguing, like, if you're if you're in conflict, right, the way that you're where those feelings are landing on you as a mirror the feelings that are feeling so that's my I'll use them as either as my, with my teenagers. But like this, this idea of an example the person gave was, if you have a toddler, and toddler has a temper tantrum, and you feel helpless and frustrated, that's what the toddlers feeling. That's what that's what's precipitating the temper tantrum? I don't know. I just thought that was so intriguing.
Darshan
just for the fun of it.
Robin
Okay, so if you're hanging out with I can't help you, but but if it's like it was just random, you know, garden variety, better term. garden variety challenges that would be Oh, wait, and one more thing. Yes, I learned that. Barack Obama and Bruce Springsteen are really real life. besties and they have their own podcast. It's kind of awesome. Oh, no, no one. Right. It's the podcast is pretty great.
Darshan
Have you been listening to it?
Robin
Oh, yes. Yes. Excellent.
Darshan
I have a question. Mostly because I'm just confused by how that happened. But did you watch the Netflix?
Robin
No, I yeah.
Darshan
Yeah. I mean, as a president, I didn't have complaints against brock obama. But as a Netflix show, producer or maker, I have no idea what I watched. I was so confused.
Robin
Can't be graded.
Darshan
No, it was just cartoons. Music and I was just hoping that this is like the prelude to the actual show. No, that was the whole thing. So I was very confused. You can find it and then you can you waste those 10 minutes. If you if you waste those 10 minutes of your life watching that show, tell me what you got out of it. Because I couldn't get anything out of it. It's not saying anything bad about him, I just don't share that artistic vision. And probably my fault
Robin
reflects that kind of right brain out there. And this I got, you know,
Darshan
that was meant for and that probably meant something to I'm just not that person.
Robin
Well, this other podcast is more about the, with the interesting thing that that they shared, and how they became friends is they both felt like outsiders, which is kind of mind blowing when you think about it. So it was it's just a really interesting and they have these sort of, it's like these conversations around things that range from fatherhood, to what it was like, when they were growing up, and how the things they experienced when they grew as they were growing up kind of informed their, their thoughts on our country and racial relations and equity in these things. It's just really kind of interesting. I don't know, I really thoroughly enjoyed it.
Darshan
Like, I love that concept. Because the business school thought that I battle with which which it says inherently to, to change something, you have to understand something. So that's one school of thought, the second school of thought, which is you know, what's Good Will Hunting.
Robin
Yeah.
Darshan
Yeah, you remember the first scene where Matt Damon goes in solves the impossible problem. It's actually based on a real story, right?
Robin
Yeah. Yeah, I do remember is based on a real story. Yeah. Yeah. What
Darshan
the story in that case was, um, there was a student who walked into a class start to walk and link into a class, you saw two examples on the on the board. And he figured that's next week's homework and just when solve them, and they were both impossible questions, but since no one told them, that's impossible. He went ahead and did
Robin
presumably a high level of genius as well, let's, let's face it, the rest of us might just give up,
Darshan
possibly, and I'll give you an example of why that's not necessarily true in a second. Um, it's just not knowing that it's impossible is often the part that that gets you over that hump. And the reason I say that is that that outsider in this off not being in the know of the impossible, and this is what got him over it. You mentioned that the high level of genius, I, when I came to this country, so I grew up for a vast majority of my life. And I think he knew that. And when I came here, no one told me that it's impossible to graduate. Community 61 year is not because of anything else, I literally didn't know. 2020, Summer 2520 spring I graduated. But my point is, I didn't know any better. So sometimes just being on the other side of what is, what is the insight, what you know, is what gets you over the hump. I don't think I'm particularly particularly intelligent or anything, I just think I just did not. So my point is, to Brock, Obama or Bruce Springsteen, they both change the world in many, many ways. And I wonder if they're outside, and this is what caused it, I think
Robin
they kind of make an argument for that, that their outside harness, gave me an opportunity to kind of look at things differently, create a different lens, and then, and then I think there was something about that lens that allow them to have empathy, to think you can't really change anything, if you don't have your desire, as you said, like a deep desire to understand it and be empathetic toward it. So it was just interesting,
Darshan
which is such an interesting comment he made there, which is if you don't have a desire to understand, you cannot cause change. And a really good example of that, I think most would agree right now is what's happening in tech. I don't know if you heard but both Google and Apple announced that it closing the health divisions. I'm really interested because, yeah, well, my personal perspective is that tech came into healthcare, saying we're gonna change the world, never understanding what health does. What they realized is it's really hard to change out. All those things are the way they are so good, those problems. You can't fix those problems. I think that Fundamental. So they still are going to have components that do elf, but they aren't going to go in trying to fix out the way they originally had. And I think that empathy is that is that distinction? I think there's more.
Robin
There's no, I think you're absolutely right. I think there is. There's this concept of, Oh, I'm gonna go change this thing. And hey, outsiders gonna have great ideas. Yeah, absolutely. They need to make sure they understand the thing. Um, I mean, I think like, I think it wasn't like apple. And it's, you know, it's a subscriber bias. I mean, we can say, my Apple Watch there. Like, clearly, if you want to influence me, by my watch, and I, you know, download apps to help me with meditating and all these other things. You gotta understand there's a subscriber bias. I've already made this decision. Yeah, maybe the person that you really want to reach to change health isn't the one who's going to be wearing an Apple Watch. And it could be for a variety of reasons could be for, they're not interested in it. It could be there's health inequities? It could be. I mean, it could be that in their community, it's not a it's it would be unwelcome, or a sign of something else. A symbol of something else. So I mean, I think I think that's why, when you hear about, oh, someone's gonna come in and change this thing. They need to really make sure they understand what they're changing or trying to change.
Darshan
I just thought this this headline is, speaks to the point we're making. And then there's the last question, which is, what is something that's made you happy in the last week?
Robin
Oh, that's easy. So um, you know, I think every time we talk, I share something that just seems wacky to the rest of the world. And I would think I would get embarrassed but I don't Um, so the thing that made me happy in the last week is that we have we're hosting a beehive and I had a chance to hang out with the beekeeper and learn about bees and how you care for the bees and how you find the queen and how you check for mites. It was like this wonderful enlightening hour of my week, it was just phenomenal and and, and I thought you know, there's something kind of beautiful about a beehive and it's a it's because they're it's it is like a single unit like a single mind. In all these different entities. I mean, there there's a singular focus and, and it's so interesting to me. These are fascinating. That was great. What actually two things and then my son was studying for his quiz on places of the world. And my technique when he got something wrong was I would make him play for him a song that would be help him remember so like, for example, he got Africa wrong. So you played Africa, users Africa. We would have a dance party with the crazy song we pick so yeah, he he's like I promise you I'll never get that wrong.
Darshan
Timing is impeccable because my girlfriend I were just having a conversation, and she'd never heard the term the song. Oh, Karolina from Shaggy. Have you heard this
Robin
one? I think I have, but maybe,
Darshan
because I think if my YouTube might object to it.
Robin
Yeah. Okay, I'll go check. But yeah, but
Darshan
that's out there. So the time your timing is perfect. That's a really, really good sort of memory for him as well. I'm repeating last question, how can people reach you? You get you can be found on twitter at Robin witsel. You can also be found on LinkedIn at Robin whistle. Um, is there any place out Oh, and also you can actually go to your webs website. And what is your website again?
Robin
whistle innovations.com
Darshan
innovations calm, Robin. It was wonderful. Wonderful, wonderful seeing you again, and I hope you'll come back again.
Robin
Of course. Thanks, john.
Darshan
Thank you.
Robin
This is the DarshanTalks podcast, regulatory guy, irregular podcast with host Darshan Kulkarni. You can find the show on twitter at DarshanTalks or the show's website at DarshanTalks.com