Darshan
Hey everyone, welcome to the DarshanTalks podcast. I'm your host Darshan Kulkarni. It's my mission to help you trust the products you depend on. As you know, I'm an attorney. I'm a pharmacist, and I advise companies with FDA regulated products. So if you think what drugs wonder about devices, consider cannabis obsessive pharmacy. This is the podcast for you. I do have to emphasize I'm a lawyer. So this is not legal advice. It's purely for educational purposes. I do these video podcasts, there are a lot of fun, and I find myself learning something new each time. So it would be nice if you know that someone's listening. So if you like what you hear, please like, please subscribe. Please comment, please engage with us while we're having this conversation. And if you think other people would like it, please share, you can always find me on Twitter at DarshanTalks, or just go to our website DarshanTalks calm. Our podcast today is it's gonna be really, really interesting. Our guest is an HR guru, a Maven, if you will. So I'm really excited to discuss what that looks like, because he's got a really interesting background. So I'm going to talk a little bit more about that today. Our guest is the president of house solutions. he consults with small and medium sized businesses and nonprofits to help bring people organizations and leadership solutions to improve business performance. He's currently engaged with several medium sized businesses and coaches and mentors, members of their of the HR team and their leadership teams. And they'll develop strategies and solutions to enhance their performance and business impact was previously the global leader, leadership and corporate function at mark and mark and company. He's not there anymore. He is his own master of his own ship, if you will. So welcome. And thank you for coming, David. How are you? I guess, David?
David
Yes, no, no, I'm doing great. Thanks. Having a good summer, and I've been looking forward to joining your podcast for a couple months. So I'm glad that we're here.
Darshan
I'm excited we finally get to do this. I'm gonna ask you a question that that has been bothering me for a while, mostly because I don't know how you figure this out. My first question is, there's a as individuals, as we start growing, we always have mentors who guide us. At a certain point. There's, there's a point at which those mentors disappear, you're often at their level when they start guiding you and stuff. What is the point at which you need you need professional mentors?
David
I think we all can benefit from professional mentors. So it's interesting that you said that I took a trip earlier this summer, our family was on vacation, we went out to California, and I got together with my main mentor from when I was at Merck, who's now retired and living in Ventura. So it's interesting because they do kind of fade off a little bit, not that he's disappeared, but he's been out of the workspace for a while, you know, I think anybody deserves and would benefit from various coaches. I know a number of people sort of have their own little board of directors have people that they rely on for advice, and different perspectives. So, you know, I encourage everybody to think about who in your network can you learn from, and it's not necessarily somebody who's more expert at what you do. It could be and that's helpful, but also people who care a lot about you and you know, kind of walk in other shoes can shine a light on what you're doing, what choices you have, that you might not see yourself. So I think everybody should should be relying on the input from other people, because we all can continue to learn no matter what.
Darshan
So it's interesting, you mentioned that because I, you're 100%, right, when you talk on advisory board, being basically mentors, but that's not what I think about when I am an individual trying to grow within a company. When I'm an individual growing with a company, I'd love to have an advisory board of mentors, but I often have to depend on 123 people if I'm lucky. My question is, how do you choose the right mentor at that point?
David
I'm not sure that there's a science to it. You know, the person that I'm thinking of was my manager, probably, you know, a couple levels above me, but given the way that our department was organized, I had direct access to him. He's a person who took an interest in me when I was in a prior role. I was interested in the part of the business that that he was in charge of, and so I went and chatted with him had an informational interview and so forth. And it's it's so it's it's part who has the skill set that you're looking for it's part where's the you know, you Using a hockey analogy, where's the puck going in terms of your own career? Where is it that you want to get to and who's who's positioned there. And as part of chemistry, right, somebody that you click with somebody who's willing and interested to spend the time to guide you and advocate on your behalf? And then I think you have to ask, you know, and most people, if you ask for their help with, you know, a modest amount of time commitment and where the mentee is doing the work, in terms of establishing the meetings and knowing what questions you want to ask, and so forth, most people will gladly say yes.
Darshan
So so it's funny, you said that some of the factors you just mentioned seem so obvious, in retrospect, the idea that you need to have direct access to this person. So if you're just starting out, starting out at a company, and if it's a big company, don't aim to have a CEO as your mentor, even though your up might be going that direction, not because they wouldn't be a good mentor, you just aren't going to have enough access to them to ask the questions you want to ask? Yeah, so so. So when you're guided, you have mentor people over your career? Yes. How? Could you talk a little bit about your experiences? How did you meet these people? What What is it about them as a mentor, as a potential mentor? That you said, this is the right fit for me? Not just for them? And and what what do you find? STEM learning as you continued?
David
Yeah. So I have had a number of people that I've mentored before, and some have been, you know, extended periods of time, and others sort of fizzled out, depending upon the amount of energy that that we each put into it, to be honest. You know, I think that I look for people who are self directed, and who have an idea in their mind of what they want to do with their career and or their life, right, we talk about things that go beyond work, too. And so they've got an idea, but they don't have everything worked out yet in terms of what the options are, and sort of what they would need to do to get there. So I'm looking for somebody who's proactive, but not necessarily tunnel vision. And where it's worked well, the person seeking me as a mentor is the one really making sure that we maintain the relationship and maintain guidance. So I think the mentee, it's really incumbent upon the mentee to keep it going, and the mentor to lean in when asked, you know, so that's where it's worked the best.
Darshan
So So, um, when people are like, you're now essentially professional mentor, you're mentoring these these startups. Obviously, there's an element of cash because it takes up your time, but how do you figure out if they are the right fit for you to mentor? Is there a certain phase they're in when you go, okay, we need to start guiding this leadership because you're destined for great things. But But, but there's a huge gap between destined for great things, and you're ready, you're ready for some mentorship? So how do you traverse that gap?
David
Sure, yeah. And I'll get a little bit more into the HR consulting that I do. So I worked for Merck and company for 27 years. And that's a very large corporate, you know, fortune 50 kind of an environment, you get an opportunity to work on things at a very high level, you get an opportunity. When I say at a high level, I mean, with high quality, right? They're very sophisticated, and they're good amount of resources, and so forth. And now I'm converting that into helping organizations that are much smaller, so anywhere from 20 employees to maybe 300 employees. And they're building and i, where i can add values to help the leaders and leadership team and or the HR leader and that person's team to build from either not having a strong people management approach into one that's more sophisticated, whether there's a HR department or whether it's the leadership team owning that. And so I look for organizations where I can bring the experience that I've gotten through through my career and really help them move from basic or solid up significantly. The kinds of people that that works best with are people who have value or see value in the people Beside of their business, and who are trying to scale and they can't do that without attending to being real clear on, what are the culture and values that they're seeking to promote? And as they're hiring the people that are going to be the future of their organization? Are they hiring consistent with those? Or, you know, how are we organized, and are people clear on roles and responsibilities. And inevitably, as you grow from being a small family to being a tribe to being a village, people have to let go of things that they've worked on before and collaborate differently. And so you have to set up different kinds of communications channels, and you have to delegate responsibility. And you have to, you know, there are natural sort of strains that organizations go through as they as they mature, and they grow. And I look for leaders that are on that kind of a growth path, but also appreciate that they need to work through these phases in order to be successful going forward. And that's where I can add the most value. So So
Darshan
it's interesting, what you describe, essentially, is the different phases of the company itself. Which is that initial startup is the 112 person growth story, they're going, we're gonna grow well, you get past that phase, and then you're now in the 2200 person phase. And then there's the 100 to 300 person phase. And then there's 1000 phase, and then it just keeps exploding from there. Yeah. short version, first question for you. Where do you think you add the most value? What is it? Is it that 20 person piece? Or is it the 100% piece, or is it anywhere from 20 to 1000, and you can keep going if they need that,
David
for me, and, you know, I've networked with a lot of people who do similar things to me, and, and we all play in slightly different spaces. But for me, I think it's the 25 to 300 space would be my sweet spot. And that's where you get into needing different management approaches to be successful, right, you can't get everybody in the same room at the same time, or at least it doesn't make sense to do that on a regular basis. And you need to identify who's responsible for what and how everything fits together, and manage performance and delegate responsibility and begin to set up management approaches that are going to enable your organization to scale up things like performance management, or things like leadership skills for the leaders that then allow them to, to lead their organizations more effectively. So that's really that pivot around the 25 to 50 range is really fun. I have one client that's more in the 300 range. And it's more complicated when you get to that range. So you know, I can add value in in any of those spaces, but I would say the smaller is really more where I have a bigger impact.
Darshan
I, I would I would take it one step further. And this is where I live life by this motto, which is if you don't enjoy it, don't do it. It's just not worth it. So it sounds like you can add value everywhere because you've done it literally. But But you enjoy that that initial phase of that 25 to 100 where people are, are growing past their initial here's who I am. Let me let me ask you a question of a space you don't cover and then ask you back into the normal space you do cover which is I'm an entrepreneur, I'm starting like I have my own firm I can I'm seeing growth, all that good stuff. But I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a solo for the most part. I have a small team but yeah, my question is, if I want that level of mentorship and I'm going you know what, I just want to talk to people just to Don't Don't tell me what I'm not looking at. Is it too early? Like would IT consultant go? I appreciate it. I feel I feel your pain, but you're not ready for me yet. And and if so, when am I right? When should I start reaching out? When do those blocks come together?
David
Yeah. What you're describing makes me think of people who do leadership coaching. Right? So and I do some of that in the course of my business but there's a number of people who you know, achieve certification and you know, that's what they do they they they work with entrepreneurs like yourself, small business owners, etc, etc on, on their leadership, so they're more in the matching, what your gifts are and what your opportunities are and helping people like you think through what do you aspire to Where are you trying to get to, and how to get there, where? Well I can do some of that stuff where I play more is they've got the organization going. And they know where they're trying to get to, they know what their business model or where their success formula, what they think that's gonna be what, you know how they're gonna win in the marketplace. But they don't know how to run the organization, you know, they're trying to actually operationalize that through a community of people. And that's what they're trying to figure out how to make work. So I think there's, for somebody like you, you're unless you've got a really significant network of people that you are trying to manage through, you're really more in that former side of figuring out, what's your next phase more individually? Does that make sense? It does, it
Darshan
does. 100%. I think the reason I asked the question, not just for me, who actually absolutely benefit from that, but also for a lot of entrepreneurs who are probably listening in going, I want to start that business. But why do I even start? Sure. When those entrepreneurs are looking, what should they be asking? Should they be asking about certifications? And should they be asking about leadership experience? Or is it simpler? Is it Do you have the right connection? Like, how do you begin to identify the right person for you?
David
Yeah, I think through networks, is the best way. I think that certifications are all well and good. But the the power is in how good the person is not necessarily what course they've gone through. So and then, as I said before, the chemistry is important to somebody that you relate to somebody who hopefully you can relate to really well but is different from you, and then can shine a light on that would be from a different perspective. And the the, there are a lot of folks out there, who are former HR executives, not even just HR former executives, who have a sort of second career doing coaching, because they've themselves been very successful. They understand what good leadership looks like, and have been through some of the trials and tribulations of that, etc. And there are a number of people out there who, as sort of a second part of their career take this on. And, you know, I think it wouldn't be too difficult to navigate to those people through particularly back to your question about mentors, if you go back to people who have mentored you in the past, and ask them who they would recommend, they probably have people that they can connect you with.
Darshan
So So, so now, I me or whoever else has has grown, we now have 25 people, 30 people, and we're going, how do we how do we pivot these these? The, my team needs to grow? I don't know where to begin? I've reached out to David at this point. And I'm, I'm going okay, David, I, what is my growth strategy? Are you talking to all 25? Are you talking to maybe the top four or five? Or how does that plan? Is it individual at that point? Or is it more strategy conversation, like a mastermind type, of course, or just something totally different?
David
Yeah, I generally work with the leadership team, the could be the CEO, could be the CEO, could be the head of HR, or it could be the whole leadership team. It depends on the engagement. So you know, in one, that I'm just starting up. This is an organization that's a spinoff from a larger company. And so they're on their own now, and a lot of the infrastructure, organizational infrastructure didn't come along with the spin off. So they've got to build the muscle, at the corporate level to be able to deliver out in the field. And how do you do that. So that's, that's one challenge. Another one is, is a small biotech, who has a number of people who have worked in Big Pharma like I did, and have sort of that expectation of people management. But they don't have the toolkit built, right. And so they're looking for somebody to come in and help them build the build the to toolkit, they're hiring an HR director, but they're looking for somebody more of the executive level to work with the CEO, and work with the HR director to put those things in place. So each one's a little bit different in terms of who my client is, and what their needs are. And one of the fun things is to is to just be, you know, work with, with each one very flexibly. This isn't a me there are organizations that come with a toolkit and they say, Well, here are the, you know, the three things that we can do. In my case, it's more of a bespoke approach, and drawing on a number of tools. I'm also aligned with a couple of HR consulting organizations and affiliates of theirs and so I can draw on expertise there. So people like me, have a pretty good network of colleagues and we all help each other out. And, you know, the, at this stage in in our careers, once we can kind of get in and have discussions and diagnose what's going on, we know which tools we need to go get. And it's a question of than just being able to use them effectively.
Darshan
So so so this is gonna sound like a weird question, especially since you do everything bespoke. But are there any common mistakes you've seen? These are not ready to be called medium size, but like the super early stage, companies that you work with, often have mistakes within that you sort of have to smooth them out? And what are they? And how do you sort of fix them?
David
Well, that's a really good question. So there are, there are natural friction points, or whatever. So a few of those are members of leadership, who loved it, when it was five people, and are now straining, that it's 25 and really not ready for it to be 50. They want to be involved in all of the decisions and the discussions and be aware of what's going on. And so that's a common challenge that you have to deal with. And and it's a question of either coaching the people through that, or maybe they're, they're not the right people for this now bigger organization, and they should go back to do another startup. So people choices is one area and making sure that you, you know, in a way that helps people reach the goals that they have for themselves, right, you kind of find a way to get people put in the right, given the right responsibilities. And so sometimes people don't grow with the organization, that's that's one challenge. And that goes along with, you know, resistance to delegate responsibility and tendency to micromanage people underneath them and things like that. That's a big one that I've seen a few times. And I think the second would be a senior team alignment. So how do we ensure that we create a common vision for where we're trying to get to, and that we're all pulling the same direction, building trust among the team, you know, each person trusting that the others are doing what they need to do, and that that communications are open and direct. So team performance or team effectiveness as a second one, I would say, is big. The blocking and tackling of doing HR programs and processes. Well, that's not the secret sauce, that's, that's like table stakes, you know, giving people making sure that people are clear on what their objectives are in giving them feedback, and helping them to think about their own career growth. And all of that is all it all needs to happen. But that's not what's going to make an organization flourish. What's gonna make an organization flourish is having the absolute best talent possible in the right roles, who are all aligned around where we're trying to go and working together? That's the secret sauce.
Darshan
Um, it's funny, you say that now, because I've been through organizations, I've had this struggle, and I didn't realize it's just a normal struggle. Everyone goes through it each time it feels special when you go through it. Yeah. But for someone who's done at the macro level, you're like, no, this is just normal. This is this happens, it's fine. What I'm hearing you say, though, is that you first need to work. You mentioned the two basic ones. One is people who don't want that next phase of the organization because they like where they are, or they prefer the way they were. And two is the senior team is not in alignment. What I imagine you have to do, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is you have to tackle number two before you tackle number one. Because if you don't, unless you know where the company wants to go, sure, it makes no sense to say you are in the wrong organization or not. How do you go about helping these companies set goals and when you're setting when you're helping these companies have goals? I have to imagine you're not and I'm putting words in your mouth. So feel free to correct everything I'm saying. But I have to imagine that you are going you're not only talking to HR, you're talking about the entire company's growth and and how is it weird? Is it hard to tell the CEO, here's what you got to do next, not from an HR perspective, even though that's why you hired me, but everything else.
David
One of the things I really like about working with organizations that are this size is that It's not weird to say that, it would be weird to say that to the CEO of Merck, where I came from, although it's kind of necessary, you know, if we're not headed the right way, but but in smaller organizations, I find that there's a lot more openness to these new ideas and an understanding that we don't have everything figured out. So any good HR professional, whether you're a consultant, or embedded, really should be talking about the business and how we're trying to to win and what we need to do to get there. And then you bring a lens about what kind of organization do we need, what kind of people do we need, etc. That's the lens that the HR person brings. But it's only a lens on the bigger question of what needs to happen for us to be successful. And I try to spend a good amount of time understanding what the business is all about, and what the keys to success for the business are. Because you can only then translate the people strategies, once you understand that, which
Darshan
is super interesting to me, because you're talking to a company that probably started with two or three or four people, then you hired these people, and you're going, these were my friends, these were people I went for drinks with every single night. And now, they don't want to go in this direction. I don't want to lose them, because they're my friends. But it's good for the organization. Yeah, how did? How do you basically tell the CEO, your friends got to get fired? Not because he's a bad person, or she's a bad person. Right. But because they're not built on the same vision, and it's a bad fit for them?
David
Right? delicately, delicately, but directly at the end of the day, the CEO probably already knows that
Darshan
really? Well.
David
At a certain level? Sure. And so it's a question of kind of putting something on the table that or you can say, you know, maybe there are certain symptoms happening, right things, behaviors or situations that come up, and and you can get into a discussion about so. So why is that? what's what's going on here? And either elicit from the leader, some things that that could explain that or they put, you know, their thoughts on the table and say, you know, I've got a different way of looking at that. Here's the way I'm looking at that, you know, what do you think of this. And as long as you do that, in a way, that's not nobody's, nobody's a bad person. And he's trying to do the wrong thing, almost nobody's trying to do that. And as long as you do it in a way that says, that honors what everybody's gifts are, and that seeks to get them to be in a situation where they can be fully successful. That's the whole idea. And if somebody is not the right fit here, at this point in time, they're going to be the right fit somewhere else. And, you know, we can help them get there.
Darshan
So I'm well above the time that I thought would take, but you're just a fascinating person to talk to about this stuff. So thank you. Mike, my question for you is, in those situations where, when you're in a larger organization, they can help set you up with a softer landing, like will help you will refer you or here's a place you can go to they'll set you up with a new job, etc, etc, etc. Now, the 25 people, that's not happening, because you just don't have that kind of structure yet. is how do how do people receiving the bad news? receive it? Do they tend to go? What will I do? And I imagine there's that element that goes to the head. But do you find, I would imagine, surprisingly, that people are almost relieved,
David
at times, sure. You know, it depends on the level of self awareness that everybody has, which varies quite wildly, or widely between people. But you get all of the Kubler Ross, you know, stages of grief and, and all of that kind of stuff. There's a way to to have these conversations that is supportive. And that's the key. And if, if so so me as an external consultant, I'm probably not the right person to have that conversation, although I can, if needed, I can help support the line leaders, but the person, whoever we're talking about, needs to believe that the people that they're talking to have their best interests in mind. And if if you can convey that in an honest way, then the rest of the conversations difficult, but not tragic.
Darshan
That's really, really good. So David, before we go, we should start wrapping things up only because we're well past the time I thought we'd take but As this as I said, there are four questions we're gonna ask the first question. The first question is, how can they reach you for people who are just listening in?
David
Yeah. So if you want to reach out to me Got a question, you can email me, my email is David. See how see is in Charles, my middle name? David see how@comcast.net?
Darshan
Perfect. Based on what we discussed, what would you like to ask the audience?
David
I guess I would be interested to hear what challenges you face from a people in organization point of view that we didn't talk about yet?
Darshan
I'll tell you something I wanted to ask that I didn't talk about and this is gonna sound like a weird question to ask, but especially the HR person, but I have to imagine you've heard this before. It always feels like when you're dealing with startups, or dealing with larger companies, you apply for a job, it goes into HR, HR doesn't really know what you do. They're just sort of throwing out applications, or requests, and you're kind of like, how much of this Do I really need to meet before my applications taken seriously? And is it a black hole? Yeah. How do you deal with the question of, is it a black hole? And how much of the job description Do I need to meet before? Before someone will take my application? Seriously? And I'll ask you this question in the context of the following, which is, I've had, and we didn't get into this, I really want to get into the diversity inclusion part of it. But that's for another day. But But my question is, I've had a lot of male friends apply for jobs, if they have, if they've done are comfortable with 20 30%. And then maybe know they can handle the other 50% there's a there's a learning curve for the remaining 20%. Versus I've had a lot of female friends tell me, they don't even apply unless they're there. They've done 70%. Yeah. Which I think is a disservice to, to people who are incredibly capable. Yeah. How do you address that?
David
Yeah. Well, so there's a lot of research that bears that out in terms of sort of gender approaches to this. And the, because they don't really know how to answer your question. So the question is, what what is an HR person? Should you do about that, or?
Darshan
That's an observation. Yeah. And, and I guess my first observation is, as an HR person, how do you handle the information that, so there are some really good candidates, right? Oh, who are not applying, or, conversely, there's some terrible candidates who are applying?
David
Sure. Well, so the first thing I would say is to ensure that you've got a diverse candidate slate. And so if in your example, there may be fewer women applying, you don't stop with just the first influx, if it doesn't show good balance in terms of gender, you keep going and looking for more candidates, there's also research that shows whatever the less represented group is, if there's only one of them in the slate, they're much less likely to get the job than if there are two. So if you've got two or more of a, of people of color, or women, that it's not twice the likelihood that they're gonna get the job, it's well more than twice. So trying to make sure you've got more than just one sort of minority group person is the first thing making sure that the, that the interview, slate is also diverse is really important. And trying to be trying to have mechanisms that pull out unconscious bias early on. So some organizations take the names off the resumes, and because that could indicate male female, it might indeed might indicate country of origin or something like that, right? And trying to develop ways to take bias out of the system. That is a whole other podcast we could do. And there are people who probably are more expert than I at that, but those are the kinds of things that we try to do as HR people.
Darshan
Very, very cool. Let me ask you a different question. Um, what is something you learned last month that you think that people are listening will enjoy hearing
David
I'm gonna go back to this organizational growth model idea, because that's, that's come in, and this is back in my workspace, but that's come in really handy with a couple of my clients where, for example, one of my clients is a 300 person, give or take organization that provides business services to medical clinics. Using this idea of what is the, how do you succeed? And what are the important things to do when you're at 300 people, but you're serving your serving customers that are 15 people. And their mindset, the customers mindset is way back early on in your company's growth. They're not where you're at, right? That was like a big lightbulb that helped my client think differently about their business. And this other one, which is the spin off from the bigger company. They're now they've now shifted from the, you know, 300 to 1000, person size two to the 25 person size. But the mindsets are the mindsets aren't aligned yet. Yeah. People on their board think that they should be operating more like they were before, but they're back in startup mode. So I think this this organizational growth concept, for me has been really helpful.
Darshan
Very, very cool. Um, what's something that makes you happy in the last week?
David
I have both my kids in the house. So, so I've got two boys. They're 21 and 18. And my 21 year old is home for a week after doing an internship this summer. And then he'll go back to his senior year of college, and then my younger son's 18. And it's going to be a freshman in college. So he departs for university a week from Saturday. And so we're gonna be empty nesters. We've got four people in the house now and two weeks from now it'll be down to two. But but having the family together is has been great. And getting Andrew ready for college and just the excitement that he has about jumping into that new world is is really wonderful.
Darshan
That's awesome. Again, David, they can reach you at David see how@comcast.net. And, David, thank you so much for coming on. This was super interesting. Great time. This one. Thank you. Thank you. Stay tuned. We'll hopefully have david back soon.
David
This is the DarshanTalks podcast, regulatory guy, irregular podcast with hosts Dr. Shaun Kulkarni. You can find the show on twitter at DarshanTalks or the show's website at DarshanTalks.com